General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[MARTINE]

From David Walsh, Mona Tasmania

Memo from David Walsh to staff, about vaccination at Mona, 2 September 2021

A society with unlimited rights is incapable of standing to adversity.
—Alexander Solzhenitsyn

"What happens when we want to undertake a journey, but a government-mandated intervention delays it, because, they say, it serves the greater good? Is that an infringement on our rights?

I’m talking about traffic lights. Today, while taking the kids to school, I had to wait for a total of six minutes while cars went somewhere else. Of course I could have ignored those dastardly traffic lights, but ignoring them, potentially, has consequences. I might get in trouble with the very authorities that I’m resisting. Is running those lights a legitimate protest? Perhaps I should protest by making things worse (I could stand in the middle of the intersection, at great risk to myself to enhance the risk to others—that’d work). I might kill myself. But I’ve got a fancy car that’ll protect me. Perhaps I should run those lights, window down, arm out, middle finger extended. But if I run those lights, others might suffer. Most times, though, I’ll get through unscathed, and cause no diminishment to others. Am I feeling lucky, punk? And anyway, aren’t we a bunch of self-interested, greed-is-good, motherfucking capitalists? Why should I look after others?

But I stopped at the red lights. So did everybody else. If traffic lights are a part of a global conspiracy to turn us all into pawns of the government, or Bill Gates, or 5G, then I’m a government tool. Or just a tool. And so is everybody else.

I’m going to make vaccination mandatory for staff at Mona. If that makes you see red (lights) despite the previous three paragraphs let me, briefly, talk about the nature of risk. Some types of risk are additive (every time you take a bath, there’s a small chance it’ll kill you: but there is no chance it’ll kill anyone else). When you go to work unvaccinated there’s a small chance you’ll get COVID and an even smaller chance you’ll die. But each time you take that risk there is a small chance you’ll kill someone else (it’s multiplicative). That’s not okay. In a perfect world the vaccine would never kill you (a very small risk, but additive, like a bath), and it’d protect you and others completely. It doesn’t give perfect protection. Sometimes traffic lights fail. But we don’t turn them off. That’d kill more people. We keep them on, because mostly, inefficiently and grudgingly, we serve the greater good.

We’ll give you a decent interval to get vaccinated, and if necessary we’ll help you make an appointment.

We used to have co-leaders who could cruise through amber. One has gone to greener pastures (congrats). Patrick will now be our CEO solo. Ably assisted by Liz and Philippa and hundreds of others… you, if you get vaccinated. Patrick has proved he is very wise—these days, he always stops at red lights.

I wrote the above for the staff of Mona. But Emily, who mediates between me and the media, wanted to release it to everyone. ‘Transparency, and anyway, there’ll be leaks, and that’ll cause confusion.’ So I’m telling everyone that’s interested. At Mona we’ll be mandating COVID vaccinations for staff. Most of Mona’s staff are exposed to the public (although, at the moment, we don’t really have a public). Most people who visit Mona are nice, friendly, and respectful. But there’s a small chance that each of them is a reservoir for that beastly COVID virus. I’d like to mandate vaccines for the public, too, but that’d be unfair to, for example, kids. We like kids at Mona. And we like risk at Mona. But we like our staff more.

A few staff might think we are trampling on their rights, but the one right they think we are restricting doesn’t exist. Our staff don’t have the right to trample on the rights of their colleagues. Yes, it’s harsh to deprive someone of their livelihood for the good of others. And it’s harsh to deprive someone of their licence for running red lights. Harsh, but necessary."

I looove it

 

[JB expat]

A very interesting opinion from the American Civil Liberties Union. It may surprise many that they have come out in support of a vaccine mandate. You should be able to see the full article - let me know if it is behind a paywall as I've used the "gifting link" that is part of my subscription for the first time (never really paid attention to it before).

Opinion | We Work at the A.C.L.U. Here’s What We Think About Vaccine Mandates. (Published 2021)

They protect the most vulnerable among us.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Pushka]

A very interesting opinion from the American Civil Liberties Union. It may surprise many that they have come out in support of a vaccine mandate. You should be able to see the full article - let me know if it is behind a paywall as I've used the "gifting link" that is part of my subscription for the first time (never really paid attention to it before).

Opinion | We Work at the A.C.L.U. Here’s What We Think About Vaccine Mandates. (Published 2021)

They protect the most vulnerable among us.

www.nytimes.com

And similarly an important Civil Liberties spokesperson in Australia commented a few weeks ago that it was a pure civil liberty to go into a place without fear of catching a preventable virus.

 

[ethernet]

Dr John Campbell on Youtube has been busy. But Professor Pollard (UK) says Covid will be endemic, and we will be living with it for a while. My take is WA and Qld stroll out is criminal, as a breakout is a certainty, just like NZ. While Vic and NSW will do their best, the risk of cross border leaks accelerates in line with increasing numbers and determined fools intent on Christmas get-togethers. A 3rd booster will not have much benefit in terms of health burdens, although it should unconditionally enable International flights/travel with home quarantine, because it reduces scary asymptomatic breakthrough carriers. Treasury can't foot the cash splash that long.

The PM has a choice: December or March snap election. Delta makes December too risky, and besides WA won't play nice. I will be in a dirty mood if policy and lockdowns are stretched 5 months to suit electoral gains. The uneven demand for getting the jab in some states/pockets is going to be grisly for the fruitcakes. QF needs 1 Nov certainty.

 

[drron]

Some more about vaccinations.Israel is now giving boosters to those 12 and over.

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

Then there is this from Dr.Fauci and the CDC.

Fauci also told reporters its “likely” that Americans will eventually need to get a third dose of the vaccine to be considered fully inoculated, though a final determination would be made by the FDA and the CDC.

Fauci says new COVID variant called Mu not ‘immediate threat’ to US

Dr. Anthony Fauci on Thursday said that the new Mu variant of COVID-19 is not considered to be “an immediate threat” to the US.

nypost.com

So if you have only had 2 Pfizer shots it is possible you won't be considered to be fully vaccinated entering the USA.

Then the problems with the anti vaxxers and Heath Care.California is running out of nurses due to a combination of burnout and not wanting mandatory vaccination.

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Some more about vaccinations.Israel is now giving boosters to those 12 and over.

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

Then there is this from Dr.Fauci and the CDC.

Fauci says new COVID variant called Mu not ‘immediate threat’ to US

Dr. Anthony Fauci on Thursday said that the new Mu variant of COVID-19 is not considered to be “an immediate threat” to the US.

nypost.com

So if you have only had 2 Pfizer shots it is possible you won't be considered to be fully vaccinated entering the USA.

Then the problems with the anti vaxxers and Heath Care.California is running out of nurses due to a combination of burnout and not wanting mandatory vaccination.

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Say Pfizer waning is 6 months, how much do you think some of the deaths in Sydney are 'better' attributed to that and not the "easier" explanation of co-morbidities?

Edit to add: I just wonder if say some of those fully vaxxed who died got covid say 3 months ago, they might have survived.

 

[drron]

Well extremely few Australians are up to 6 months after having their second jab so don't think that is significant with the Sydney outbreak.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Say Pfizer waning is 6 months, how much do you think some of the deaths in Sydney are 'better' attributed to that and not the "easier" explanation of co-morbidities?

Edit to add: I just wonder if say some of those fully vaxxed who died got covid say 3 months ago, they might have survived.

The only single digit double Pfizer deaths in NSW so far are very frail elderly patients with other conditions.
Yes Covid might well have been the illness that ultimately led to their death but it’s not remotely possible to extrapolate that to failing immunity from the vaccine.
It would be very irresponsible to do so.

 

[Pushka]

The only single digit double Pfizer deaths in NSW so far are very frail elderly patients with other conditions.
Yes Covid might well have been the illness that ultimately led to their death but it’s not remotely possible to extrapolate that to failing immunity from the vaccine.
It would be very irresponsible to do so.

This was a similar issue to one of the annoying posts on FB where they quoted a certain figure had died after having the vaccination with no demographic information nor timeline, so ergo the vaccine was killing people. And people were falling for the raw number. Almost as if the vaccination was a cure for old age, cancer, heart conditions etc etc.

 

[jakeseven7]

Well extremely few Australians are up to 6 months after having their second jab so don't think that is significant with the Sydney outbreak.

A few ‘VIP’ ones are though so it will be interesting to see what they decide to boost with…if I’d had first round Pfizer early on, I’d probably be wanting AZ now after all the studies that have come out!

We have been doing some AZ boosters (off the ‘record’ as I’ve posted previously).

I guess no one could have foreseen that Pfizer wouldn’t last very long and certainly not long relative to AZ and now it also appears Moderna as well…. (Less studies on Moderna though but indicatively looks like this might be the case)

 

[mviy]

I will have had my second AZ before the end of this month. I’d be happy to have a third AZ shot next year but that may only be possible overseas so I’ll most likely get one of the vaccines offered here at that time.

 

[Pushka]

I will have had my second AZ before the end of this month. I’d be happy to have a third AZ shot next year but that may only be possible overseas so I’ll most likely get one of the vaccines offered here at that time.

The thing is, if you front up for a third vaccination, will anyone know? They have your Medicare number but unlikely to have the authority or time to check anything.

 

[Princess Fiona]

The thing is, if you front up for a third vaccination, will anyone know? They have your Medicare number but unlikely to have the authority or time to check anything.

Some places do check. I recently read of someone getting rejected at a NSW hub for 1st dose Pfizer as they were recorded as having received their first dose In Melbourne months previously.
It was clearly an AIR/Medicare recording error

 

[drron]

Some more side effects of the mRNA vaccines.
European officials have warned of some cases of multisystem inflammatory syndrome,MIS.

The European Medicines Agency (EMA) safety committee (PRAC) announced today it is assessing whether there is a risk of the multisystem inflammatory syndrome (MIS) with COVID-19 vaccines.
As of August 19, 2021, MIS cases reported in children and adults from the EudraVigilance database were: Comirnaty: 5; Spikevax: 1; COVID-19 Vaccine Janssen: 1.

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

The other is Bell's Palsy which was seen in the Phase 3 trials but initially thought to be no different to the background rate.

Bell's Palsy in COVID-19 Vaccine Trials: Why You Shouldn't Worry

Bell's palsy, or facial paralysis, has been reported in a small number of COVID-19 vaccine trial participants—both from Pfizer and Moderna. Here's what you should know.

www.verywellhealth.com

However a recent Chinese study did show an increase on background rate with Pfizer though more with their Sinovac vaccine.

Bell's palsy following vaccination with mRNA (BNT162b2) and inactivated (CoronaVac) SARS-CoV-2 vaccines: a case series and nested case-control study

Our findings suggest an overall increased risk of Bell's palsy after CoronaVac vaccination. However, the beneficial and protective effects of the inactivated COVID-19 vaccine far outweigh the risk of this generally self-limiting adverse event. Additional studies are needed in other regions to...

www.thelancet.com

Although the CDC isn't convinced EMA believes there is a link and it is being studied by ATAGI.

 

[wandering_fred]

Can we ask the same contributions from those that choose to smoke or those that become obese due to non-medical causes? Massive can of worms. I say this as someone with a BMI slightly higher than 25!

As a somewhat older person (though reasonably fit) I have found that BMI values are incapable of really evaluating the underlying state of the body. Try US Navy calculator which attempts to correct for muscle mass (versus FAT). I go from about BMI 30 to about 25 under the navy protocols.....

As far as the vaccine discussions go, there are a number of issues.
1. Underlying physical health and in particular your vitamin D levels. Anecdotal reporting indicates high/normal levels limits serious illness. Note: NOT prevention.
2. I wish the pharmaceutical industry regulators would apply the same evaluation standards which are being practiced with the vaccine rollout to the existing pharmaceuticals which seem to limit serious infection.
Most interesting comment in the alternative sites may be: Where are the double blind studies for masks? Note: In high density situations (ie public transport) masks are likely somewhat functional.
3. One cannot reasonably expect pharmaceutical companies (ie created to make a PROFIT) to create and evaluate studies of drugs which will not generate revenue.... Note: What companies fund the disease research centers?

The above requires far too much wandering
Fred

 

[Vic]

The cost of anti-vaxxers who in a pandemic are NOT helping to reduce the burden on the medical system, is not in anyway comparable to the steady state medical cost of people who make valid lifestyle choices. Let alone the trivial cost of a very small number of serious adverse vaccination reactions.

Then there is the cost of this type of anti-vax nonsense Authorities warn against acquiring drugs through back doors, after Sydney man overdoses on 'online cures'

 

[Vic]

As a somewhat older person (though reasonably fit) I have found that BMI values are incapable of really evaluating the underlying state of the body. Try US Navy calculator which attempts to correct for muscle mass (versus FAT). I go from about BMI 30 to about 25 under the navy protocols.....

As far as the vaccine discussions go, there are a number of issues.
1. Underlying physical health and in particular your vitamin D levels. Anecdotal reporting indicates high/normal levels limits serious illness. Note: NOT prevention.
2. I wish the pharmaceutical industry regulators would apply the same evaluation standards which are being practiced with the vaccine rollout to the existing pharmaceuticals which seem to limit serious infection.
Most interesting comment in the alternative sites may be: Where are the double blind studies for masks? Note: In high density situations (ie public transport) masks are likely somewhat functional.
3. One cannot reasonably expect pharmaceutical companies (ie created to make a PROFIT) to create and evaluate studies of drugs which will not generate revenue.... Note: What companies fund the disease research centers?

The above requires far too much wandering
Fred

BMI stuff is great, thanks.

The comment about the pharmaceutical industry oversight seems to repeat a common misconception about the covid vaccines about the timeframe to develop a vaccine.

Throw enough money at a problem and you can solve it quickly. A normal vaccine takes a long time to get to market, because 1 person is working on it in a basement somewhere. Take the Rotavirus vaccine, which was approved and then withdrawn, and then took another 8 years to develop a vaccine for rotavirus.

In the case of the covid vaccine, 10000 people where working on it, heaps of money thrown at it from governments and charities etc. andd hence 1 year to develop a vaccine.

It's false logic to say covid vaccine has been rushed. It's all about how much money has been thrown at the problem.

 

[cwphoto]

BMI stuff is great, thanks.

The comment about the pharmaceutical industry oversight seems to repeat a common misconception about the covid vaccines about the timeframe to develop a vaccine.

Throw enough money at a problem and you can solve it quickly. A normal vaccine takes a long time to get to market, because 1 person is working on it in a basement somewhere. Take the Rotavirus vaccine, which was approved and then withdrawn, and then took another 8 years to develop a vaccine for rotavirus.

In the case of the covid vaccine, 10000 people where working on it, heaps of money thrown at it from governments and charities etc. andd hence 1 year to develop a vaccine.

It's false logic to say covid vaccine has been rushed. It's all about how much money has been thrown at the problem.

Some aspects money and resources can accelerate for sure, but the medium to long term side-effects require time. It's entirely reasonable for some folks to take pause on taking this vaccine - especially if they are young and in good health and unlikely to be any burden on the health system.

We will likely get to 90%+ participation anyway through community support - so the need for medical apartheid is just political bullshit.

 

[wandering_fred]

BMI stuff is great, thanks.

The comment about the pharmaceutical industry oversight seems to repeat a common misconception about the covid vaccines about the timeframe to develop a vaccine.

Throw enough money at a problem and you can solve it quickly. A normal vaccine takes a long time to get to market, because 1 person is working on it in a basement somewhere. Take the Rotavirus vaccine, which was approved and then withdrawn, and then took another 8 years to develop a vaccine for rotavirus.

In the case of the covid vaccine, 10000 people where working on it, heaps of money thrown at it from governments and charities etc. andd hence 1 year to develop a vaccine.

It's false logic to say covid vaccine has been rushed. It's all about how much money has been thrown at the problem.

While I may (or may not) have reservations about the oversight of the COVID vaccine development, that subject was NOT mentioned. Rather my comment was intended to be that the same level of standard of analysis and review is not being applied "across the board".
A further question which should be answered - when does the size of an observational study become statistically significant (in a medical sense)? Several million outcomes which might be coincidental?

More wandering
Fred

 

[Pushka]

According to SMH the issue of AZ and not being able to travel to US is not correct?

"The US allows people fully immunised with either US-approved jabs or vaccines authorised for emergency use by the World Health Organisation, including the AstraZeneca vaccine, to self-monitor for symptoms and get tested a few days after entering the country. Those without recognised vaccines must quarantine for a week."