General Train Discussion

[Fiches Mouser]

Trains are great if they can beat a plane on either comfort, speed or price.

Australian long-haul (relative) trains can compete on none of those. Pick up your game or get out.

The only trains that impress me are Japanese.

 

[amaroo]

Have a few Peruvian train trips coming up in May. One is a 10 hour trip lucky it's got a bar car.

http://www.perurail.com/gallery/andean-explorer/?lang=en

 

[Major]

To compare the train systems of Australia and Europe is ludicrous. Australia has a land mass which is more than double that of Europe but a population of only 24 million compared to 738 million.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...=bGTLVvG1IMip0gSe2b-gAg#imgrc=LOt6ZraMEW7wbM:

That's a lot more tax dollars available to provide excellent train services. Even if Australia concentrated on the East Coast it would not be economically viable.

Our so called luxury trains such as the Ghan are very expensive and not such a great experience.

I believe there is a niche market with specialist trains but they need to be shorter trips and fun trips. The Taieri gorge rail trip from Dunedin is an example of this. It is offered to cruise ships and is quite popular.

Taieri Gorge Railway and Otago Train Journeys | Dunedin Railways

 

[dajop]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

We took the Eurostar from Paris to London in October. I was constantly telling the kids what an engineering marvel the tunnel was. About an hour into the trip, one of the kids goes, "if we had taken the other engineering marvel, we would have been there by now. Its called a plane". When we finally got to Heathrow, I had 4 grumpy kids and even more grumpy wife and had just wasted an extra 4 hrs (traffic was insane) and $1400 over what it would have been to fly. And it was boring as hell.

You mention about the time saving, but we had to queue an hour beforehand, had to carry out bags with us the whole way, it was interesting for the first 10 mins and cost 3 times as much. I'll take baggage check in, lounges, the savings and those hours of my life back please.

I'm curious around the expectation of time saving, the whole point of time savings on the Eurostar is getting you from the centre of London to centre of Paris, vs planes as you don't need to get to ad from the airport. If your end destination is actually LHR, it doesn't seem logical that it would actually save any time and quite the opposite cost time. I know when we flew LHR-ORY last year to get from London to Paris, by the time we factored in getting to LHR, some extra time in case of tube not going to schedule, luggage cutoff, luggage collection, a 30 min delay and getting from airport to hotel, if we'd taken Eurostar it would have been at least 90 mins quicker door to door. But you can't redeem Avios on Eurostar.

 

[Ausbt]

The only trains that impress me are Japanese.

Hard to beat. At the base of Happone I'd just clicked out of my bindings after a day's skiing and it was 3:45pm. My wife was in Tokyo and I was due to overnight at Hakuba before joining her but I thought "I don't need to stay over really". So back to the lodge, packed my gear, was on the Nagano bus at 5 pm and the Shinkansen at 6:15 pm and having dinner with my wife in Asakusa at 8:15 pm. Now that's efficiency. You just know there will be no hold ups and you will make whatever schedule you plan.

 

[JohnK]

Exactly. The train from memory was around $70. I've flown Jetstar from Sydney to the Gold Coast for half that.

But you would have to fly Jetstar?

I went to Mitchell College, Bathurst for ~5 months in 1983. Used to come back home every 2 weeks. The XPT was great and took ~3 hours. A couple of times took the old red eye clunker back to Sydney which took ~6 hours. No iPads, smartphones in those days but then they were also classier times.

If there was a quicker and cheaper train option SYD-BNE then I would consider it.

 

[medhead]

To compare the train systems of Australia and Europe is ludicrous. Australia has a land mass which is more than double that of Europe but a population of only 24 million compared to 738 million.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...=bGTLVvG1IMip0gSe2b-gAg#imgrc=LOt6ZraMEW7wbM:

That's a lot more tax dollars available to provide excellent train services. Even if Australia concentrated on the East Coast it would not be economically viable.

Our so called luxury trains such as the Ghan are very expensive and not such a great experience.

I believe there is a niche market with specialist trains but they need to be shorter trips and fun trips. The Taieri gorge rail trip from Dunedin is an example of this. It is offered to cruise ships and is quite popular.

Taieri Gorge Railway and Otago Train Journeys | Dunedin Railways

I have a dream. I believe that true high speed rail, i.e. TGV/ICE 300 km/h service, could work between Sydney and Canberra, and newcastle/the gong to sydney. Basically somewhere with high demand and travel time roughly the same as an airline. A reliable service could also start to encourage commuters from Goulburn, say, thereby creating demand for service.
Can't see it working on many other Australian routes. Maybe Adelaide to Melbourne, maybe Bathurst to Sydney.

But no one is going to spend the money.

 

[JessicaTam]

There was a study in 2011 to link MEL-CBR-SYB-BNE. Estimated to cost in the order of $114B with staged construction taking about 30 years.

https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trains/high_speed/

 

[TomVexille]

But no one is going to spend the money.

You can say that again.

Looking forward to heading back to Japan this year and getting on a N700 series

I'd like to take the California Zephyr at some point as well.

 

[Cruiser Elite]

There was a study in 2011 to link MEL-CBR-SYB-BNE. Estimated to cost in the order of $114B with staged construction taking about 30 years.

https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trains/high_speed/

Maybe we need to get the Chinese to build it - it'll be finished this year! They certainly have the experience and technology - just ask Siemens - and maybe they should operate it too - i'll bet each train departs on time - anybody who has used CRH trains in China will understand exactly what I mean

 

[esseeeayeenn]

There was a study in 2011 to link MEL-CBR-SYB-BNE. Estimated to cost in the order of $114B with staged construction taking about 30 years.

https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trains/high_speed/

The staged build is a political problem.
No incentive for governments to invest in such long term infrastructure programmes.
Look what happened to the NBN!

 

[harvyk]

I have a dream. I believe that true high speed rail, i.e. TGV/ICE 300 km/h service, could work between Sydney and Canberra, and newcastle/the gong to sydney. Basically somewhere with high demand and travel time roughly the same as an airline. A reliable service could also start to encourage commuters from Goulburn, say, thereby creating demand for service.
Can't see it working on many other Australian routes. Maybe Adelaide to Melbourne, maybe Bathurst to Sydney.

But no one is going to spend the money.

A CBR-SYD high speed rail service would probably work very well, provided it was priced as such so that commuters could reasonably afford to ride the service every day. That way it would be entirely possible to live in one city and work in the other.

The problem with Australia and rail services is we are just too large in area, with a population just too small, with a very cheap (and relatively hassle free) air service.

 

[Cool Cat Phil]

I have a friend who will visit me in BNE shortly. He will Train it. Purely for the enjoyment and contemplation of being on a train. Matt will know what that's about.

I would love to know how the train trip went.

I once caught the XPT from SYD > BNE and quite frankly I would liken the experience to travelling in a concrete mixer

Never again !

 

[Mattg]

I usually do around 2 return trips between Canberra and Sydney each month. In fact, I just did a CBR-SYD sector this morning. As much as I love flying, I usually take the train for this route because it's just that much more cost effective than flying all the time. I can get unlimited "first class" train travel within NSW and the ACT for 6 months for $550 with a Discovery Pass - that doesn't even cover 2 return trips by plane.

But these train trips do get quite tedious. The trip takes more than 4 hours, and there is no "IFE" as such. At least you get to walk around, buy a hot meal (albeit one of four meals that never change!!!) and get some work done on board - provided your device/s don't run out of battery.

Two weeks ago I travelled from Hamburg to Berlin in Germany. These cities are roughly as far apart as Canberra and Sydney (slightly further, in fact) yet the ICE train trip took well under 2 hours. The connection is so well served by regular high speed trains that there are NO flights between the two cities. They simply aren't needed. I would love to see this kind of high speed rail link in Australia some day. I do believe it will happen, but I don't think we can expect work to begin any time in the next two decades.

 

[medhead]

A CBR-SYD high speed rail service would probably work very well, provided it was priced as such so that commuters could reasonably afford to ride the service every day. That way it would be entirely possible to live in one city and work in the other.

The problem with Australia and rail services is we are just too large in area, with a population just too small, with a very cheap (and relatively hassle free) air service.

Pricing would be the key. Providing a decent high speed service cheaply could provide incentive to decentralise the population, which would then help support the service. Such a service would depend on a demographic shift. Why live in toongabbie if you could reliably commute from Mittagong or Newcastle in the same time?

what about a FRA style intercity train station at SYD, or more realistically Badgery's Creek. Imagine jumping on the train in Canberra and then an hour later you're at the airport read to board the flight to LHR.

Sure MEL-CBR-SYD-BNE would be great, but the distances are too large.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Pricing would be the key. Providing a decent high speed service cheaply could provide incentive to decentralise the population, which would then help support the service. Such a service would depend on a demographic shift. Why live in toongabbie if you could reliably commute from Mittagong or Newcastle in the same time?

what about a FRA style intercity train station at SYD, or more realistically Badgery's Creek. Imagine jumping on the train in Canberra and then an hour later you're at the airport read to board the flight to LHR.

Sure MEL-CBR-SYD-BNE would be great, but the distances are too large.

Why this constant myth that "the distances are too large" or "the population wouldn't support it"?

The distance between Canberra and either Sydney or Melbourne is comparable to the distance between Paris and Strasbourg, Lyon or Brest.
The distance between Sydney and either Melbourne or Brisbane is comparable to the distance between Paris and Marseille, Montpellier or Toulouse.
Paris is bigger than any Australian city but Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane are all as big or bigger than any of the other French cities I've mentioned.
Sure France has a denser regional population inbetween these cities but the TGV doesn't stop there, it's an express train.
And it runs on separate infrastructure to the regional trains so one doesn't subsidise the other.

Sydney-Melbourne is one of the busiest sectors in commercial aviation.
It's an ideal route for a high speed train.

 

[medhead]

Why this constant myth that "the distances are too large" or "the population wouldn't support it"?

The distance between Canberra and either Sydney or Melbourne is comparable to the distance between Paris and Strasbourg, Lyon or Brest.
The distance between Sydney and either Melbourne or Brisbane is comparable to the distance between Paris and Marseille, Montpellier or Toulouse.
Paris is bigger than any Australian city but Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane are all as big or bigger than any of the other French cities I've mentioned.
Sure France has a denser regional population in between these cities but the TGV doesn't stop there, it's an express train.
And it runs on separate infrastructure to the regional trains so one doesn't subsidise the other.

Sydney-Melbourne is one of the busiest sectors in commercial aviation.
It's an ideal route for a high speed train.

the distance are too large in combination with the lack of regional population. Is probably the point. This was my point about demographic changes. A hub and spoke model from Melbourne and Sydney might be a better way to show this can work in Australia.

the distance works against something like MEL to SYD because of the travel time. That's double the distance of Paris to Strasbourg, so you're looking at 5 hours between Sydney and Melbourne. It might be a busy route but I can't see that kind of travel time making a massive impact. Whereas Sydney to Canberra potentially has a short enough train travel time to be more attractive than flying. Assuming separate infrastructure, etc.

 

[harvyk]

Why this constant myth that "the distances are too large" or "the population wouldn't support it"?

The distance between Canberra and either Sydney or Melbourne is comparable to the distance between Paris and Strasbourg, Lyon or Brest.
The distance between Sydney and either Melbourne or Brisbane is comparable to the distance between Paris and Marseille, Montpellier or Toulouse.
Paris is bigger than any Australian city but Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane are all as big or bigger than any of the other French cities I've mentioned.
Sure France has a denser regional population inbetween these cities but the TGV doesn't stop there, it's an express train.
And it runs on separate infrastructure to the regional trains so one doesn't subsidise the other.

Sydney-Melbourne is one of the busiest sectors in commercial aviation.
It's an ideal route for a high speed train.

Simple, in the example you gave - France, they have a total area which is smaller than New South Wales, with a population of nearly 3 times the size of Australia.
Europe is only a little bit larger than Australia, but they have a population of nearly 800 million. Any sort of transport system is going to be far more utilized there than here due to sheer number of potential customers.

This is why I think any sort of high speed rail project will fail. There are small segments which could work very well if done right (eg the aforementioned SYD-CBR), but a lets connect everyone on the eastern seaboard approach will be a very expensive mistake.

 

[Deleted member]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

I'll keep it short. Had never used the XPT before and I had a day spare to get between cities so I thought I'd give the train a go and get some work done on there. First wasn't much more money so I paid up.

The cabin I received was a sleeper, although the beds are unable to be used during the day so you basically get a long seat for yourself in the cabin. The cabin was quite dirty and old and I wasn't able to close any of the curtains. The toilet next to my cabin was filthy (I'm pretty sure someone urinated on the floor). The cabin did have a power point but it said "shavers only", I used it to charged my phone, very slowly, definitely not sufficient for a laptop. The cabin didn't have a desk or tray table to work on and with the lack of charging facilities my laptop was dead within a few hours. All you can really do is sit there if you don't have any entertainment. The trip is something like 10 hours? You're continually stopping throughout. The food (which you have to purchase) I'd rate 3/10, beer selection 1/10.

The only real positive is the scenery.

Enough reason to give it a miss IMHO.

 

[JessicaTam]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

The report I linked to above has a travel time SYD-MEL of 2 hrs 44 min, and SYD-CBR 64 mins.