General Train Discussion

[medhead]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

The report I linked to above has a travel time SYD-MEL of 2 hrs 44 min, and SYD-CBR 64 mins.

It's a nice report.

According to google. Paris strasbourg is 490 km - 2h 20m. Munich frankfurt is 390 km for 3h20m train time. These are driving times. I think the routes will have a mix of terrain types, and train equipment standards.

The report says 824 km from Sydney to melbourne. if they achieve the target of 300 km/h average that is definitely 2h44m

 

[Fiches Mouser]

I would love to know how the train trip went.

I once caught the XPT from SYD > BNE and quite frankly I would liken the experience to travelling in a concrete mixer View attachment 65971

Never again !

Haha the visual really helped with that one!

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

I'm not going to go over things which I've already said.
The clearest indicator of demand is the number of passenger movements.
In 2014 according to the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development's report:
SYD<->MEL was the 3rd busiest air route in the word, with 7.8 million passenger movements in 2014.
SYD<->BNE was 10th with 4.5 million.
BNE<->MEL had 3.3 million.
SYD<->OOL 2.5 million.
The busiest French route is Paris<->Toulouse with 2.3 million.
MEL<->ADL had just under that.
Paris<->Nice had 2 million.
ADL<-> SYD and MEL<->-OOL each had about 1.8 million
There were just under 1 million between each of CBR-SYD and CBR-MEL
ADL<->BNE had about 780,000
ADL<->OOL about 220,000.

So in the BNE-OOL-SYD-CBR-MEL corridor there were almost 22 million passenger movements in 2014.
There are an additional 5 million passenger movements between that corridor and Adelaide.
So that is a total of 27 million passenger movements per year.

In 2010 the number of passenger movements across the entire TGV network in France was 114.5 million.

I really don't think the problem is a lack of passenger numbers. It is a lack of political will.

 

[Boca68]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

I'm not going to go over things which I've already said.
The clearest indicator of demand is the number of passenger movements.
In 2014 according to the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development's report:
SYD<->MEL was the 3rd busiest air route in the word, with 7.8 million passenger movements in 2014.
SYD<->BNE was 10th with 4.5 million.
BNE<->MEL had 3.3 million.
SYD<->OOL 2.5 million.
The busiest French route is Paris<->Toulouse with 2.3 million.
MEL<->ADL had just under that.
Paris<->Nice had 2 million.
ADL<-> SYD and MEL<->-OOL each had about 1.8 million
There were just under 1 million between each of CBR-SYD and CBR-MEL
ADL<->BNE had about 780,000
ADL<->OOL about 220,000.

So in the BNE-OOL-SYD-CBR-MEL corridor there were almost 22 million passenger movements in 2014.
There are an additional 5 million passenger movements between that corridor and Adelaide.
So that is a total of 27 million passenger movements per year.

In 2010 the number of passenger movements across the entire TGV network in France was 114.5 million.

I really don't think the problem is a lack of passenger numbers. It is a lack of political will.

Totally agree!

I saw a figure up the thread somewhere of $114 Billion for the east coast. Yes, its a lot. But worth it, I feel. Although the figure had a building stage timeframe of 30 years. Ridiculous! It should be done in 10 years, give or take. And it could be. As long as it is not built to be a 'regional' rail link. Solely as an 'Inter-city' service. Sure, have a stop at Albury or at Newcastle. But it has to be a very limited express to work.

Its a bit like the Melbourne Airport Rail line. Always talked about, but no one has the real balls to do it.

Often mentioned is CBR-SYD high speed link, yes of course, but it alone would not be enough. As the above figures suggest. It could only be part of a grander scheme.

 

[harvyk]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

The report I linked to above has a travel time SYD-MEL of 2 hrs 44 min, and SYD-CBR 64 mins.

at 64 minutes it makes commuting possible. Add in say 15 minutes each side to get to / from work / home, it's not a short commute but it's certainly doable.

I'm not going to go over things which I've already said.
The clearest indicator of demand is the number of passenger movements.
In 2014 according to the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development's report:
SYD<->MEL was the 3rd busiest air route in the word, with 7.8 million passenger movements in 2014.
SYD<->BNE was 10th with 4.5 million.
BNE<->MEL had 3.3 million.
SYD<->OOL 2.5 million.
The busiest French route is Paris<->Toulouse with 2.3 million.
MEL<->ADL had just under that.
Paris<->Nice had 2 million.
ADL<-> SYD and MEL<->-OOL each had about 1.8 million
There were just under 1 million between each of CBR-SYD and CBR-MEL
ADL<->BNE had about 780,000
ADL<->OOL about 220,000.

So in the BNE-OOL-SYD-CBR-MEL corridor there were almost 22 million passenger movements in 2014.
There are an additional 5 million passenger movements between that corridor and Adelaide.
So that is a total of 27 million passenger movements per year.

In 2010 the number of passenger movements across the entire TGV network in France was 114.5 million.

I really don't think the problem is a lack of passenger numbers. It is a lack of political will.

Wait a sec, only 27 million movements between the above cities by air vs 114.5 million movements on TVG alone without taking into account other options like air travel? Not only is it more than 4 times less passanger movements, it's across a larger physical area.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

at 64 minutes it makes commuting possible. Add in say 15 minutes each side to get to / from work / home, it's not a short commute but it's certainly doable.



Wait a sec, only 27 million movements between the above cities by air vs 114.5 million movements on TVG alone without taking into account other options like air travel? Not only is it more than 4 times less passanger movements, it's across a larger physical area.

The French figure is for THE WHOLE TGV NETWORK not any particular line.

 

[medhead]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

I'm not going to go over things which I've already said.
The clearest indicator of demand is the number of passenger movements.
In 2014 according to the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development's report:
SYD<->MEL was the 3rd busiest air route in the word, with 7.8 million passenger movements in 2014.
SYD<->BNE was 10th with 4.5 million.
BNE<->MEL had 3.3 million.
SYD<->OOL 2.5 million.
The busiest French route is Paris<->Toulouse with 2.3 million.
MEL<->ADL had just under that.
Paris<->Nice had 2 million.
ADL<-> SYD and MEL<->-OOL each had about 1.8 million
There were just under 1 million between each of CBR-SYD and CBR-MEL
ADL<->BNE had about 780,000
ADL<->OOL about 220,000.

So in the BNE-OOL-SYD-CBR-MEL corridor there were almost 22 million passenger movements in 2014.
There are an additional 5 million passenger movements between that corridor and Adelaide.
So that is a total of 27 million passenger movements per year.

In 2010 the number of passenger movements across the entire TGV network in France was 114.5 million.

I really don't think the problem is a lack of passenger numbers. It is a lack of political will.

I agree there is a lack of political will, hence my view that no one is going to pay.

I used to work with someone who commuted Canberra to Sydney. They almost never flew. To those air movements I reckon there would be a substantial number of car, train and bus movements that could be picked up as well.

at 64 minutes it makes commuting possible. Add in say 15 minutes each side to get to / from work / home, it's not a short commute but it's certainly doable.

When I lived in western sydney my commute could be up to 2.5 hours a day. I would've been pretty happy to do that from Canberra. Or how about Goulburn, where houses are probably a lot cheaper than canberra or sydney? But then I currently commute from Adelaide weekly, for about the same total travel time.

 

[Cool Cat Phil]

Haha the visual really helped with that one!

A picture tells a thousands words as they say

 

[OATEK]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

at 64 minutes it makes commuting possible. Add in say 15 minutes each side to get to / from work / home, it's not a short commute but it's certainly doable.

15 minutes each end means that you have to live very close to the terminus. More likely a 30-45min commute at the Sydney end alone.

I was involved in one of the first high speed train link studies back in the late 80s, and while the engineering is possible for 300kph, the business case has never been made that would ensure investment.

I have used TGV in France, Eurostar, DB to Berlin, and will shortly add Virgin in UK and Railjet from Budapest. And I don't find the journeys boring, but then again like some others on the forum I am happy to sit for a few hours behind a steam loco that usually doesn't exceed 110kph.

Trains are always in the mix for our trips. The sleeper from Paris to Berlin was a long held ambition, and did not disappoint. And the change of pace and scenery we find works.

 

[CaptJCool]

Why Do the Smartest Cities Have the Smallest Share of Cars? - The Atlantic
Three Paths to a Low-Car City — Human Transit

What's the level of car ownership of Parisians?
It's Official: Western Europeans Have More Cars Per Person Than Americans - The Atlantic
France falls out of love with the car | World news | The Guardian
https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01069997/document
Car Ownership Rates Plunge In European Cities; Smartphones More Important
Paris plans car free city centre - Parking & Traffic Consultants
carcownersuip in 2014 only 40%... Old cities laid out before cars were invented; population age, poverty and dominant Universities are key points too (hardly say that applies to ANU!?)
How Paris is Beating Traffic Without Congestion Pricing | Streetsblog New York City oh and a left-wing Mayor...

They are used to a reliable Metro as well so getting on a train is normal daily behaviour.
because as medhead mentioned car, bus, train and air service CBR-SYD the chances of the elite building the route down to Parliamnent House are zilch cause there's ample cheaper or faster ways to travel and besides why would the elites give up their fancy lounges and flying points and individualised seats for a swing in a communal lounge car with the opposing political party MPs? Haha

 

[medhead]

They are used to a reliable Metro as well so getting on a train is normal daily behaviour.
because as medhead mentioned car, bus, train and air service CBR-SYD the chances of the elite building the route down to Parliamnent House are zilch cause there's ample cheaper or faster ways to travel and besides why would the elites give up their fancy lounges and flying points and individualised seats for a swing in a communal lounge car with the opposing political party MPs? Haha

My view is that high speed rail between canberra and sydney would be faster than car, bus, train and air services. If priced the same or cheaper then people would be encouraged to use it, IMO. DB do have "fancy" lounges and it was possible at some stage to earn points on their services.

Most european cities have highly developed public transport systems that make cars irrelevant for most daily travel.

15 minutes each end means that you have to live very close to the terminus. More likely a 30-45min commute at the Sydney end alone.

If you're going to work in the cbd or nearby 15 minutes is a reasonable estimate.

 

[dajop]

A question for those in the know, would be correct to assume the cost to upgrade the Canberra - Sydney line to "medium" speed rail would be almost as high as building/upgrading to high speed rail? I know it wouldn't cut it for commuters, but there are several trains in operation in Australia that could in theory do the journey in 2 hrs (perhaps 2 1/2, to allow for slow progress through suburban Sydney) - if the tracks were up to it. But 2 hrs from Kingston to Sydney CBD would almost be competive with planes, especially in winter.

All the discussion seems to target 1 hr, but would 2 hr be a reasonable compromise?

 

[harvyk]

A question for those in the know, would be correct to assume the cost to upgrade the Canberra - Sydney line to "medium" speed rail would be almost as high as building/upgrading to high speed rail? I know it wouldn't cut it for commuters, but there are several trains in operation in Australia that could in theory do the journey in 2 hrs (perhaps 2 1/2, to allow for slow progress through suburban Sydney) - if the tracks were up to it. But 2 hrs from Kingston to Sydney CBD would almost be competive with planes, especially in winter.

All the discussion seems to target 1 hr, but would 2 hr be a reasonable compromise?

Getting the train to operate from somewhere a bit more central might be a good first start. Whilst Kingston is very close to work for me (5 minute drive), it's really in the middle of no where (and no amount of poorly built medium rise apartments is going to change that).

Running the line all the way into the CBD (like it used to before the great CBR flood) would help the trains cause. 2 hrs CBD - CBD would put in on par with planes, price it right and you may even have a winner from a passenger perspective.

 

[OATEK]

If you're going to work in the cbd or nearby 15 minutes is a reasonable estimate.

Not sure about the evidence base. The average public transport journey in Sydney is around 27mins according to the agency concerned. 15 mins might be reasonable to support an argument, but a comprehensive business case would be looking at the evidence. You might argue that anyone seeking to have a regular commute would have to consider being within 15mins of the terminus for commuting to be effective.

 

[medhead]

Not sure about the evidence base. The average public transport journey in Sydney is around 27mins according to the agency concerned. 15 mins might be reasonable to support an argument, but a comprehensive business case would be looking at the evidence. You might argue that anyone seeking to have a regular commute would have to consider being within 15mins of the terminus for commuting to be effective.

I'm not making a business case. I guess that 27 minute figure would be for all public transport across all of sydney. I'm not sure how that would be reflected with respect to travel around the CBD from central station.

My speculation is about someone commuting from Canberra/Goulburn to sydney CBD instead of from Western Sydney to CBD. (that was the premise of the comments) It isn't really based on someone taking the train from Parramatta to Katoomba.

Travel at either end is a constant for any means of getting between canberra and sydney. A fast option that is comparable in travel time to flying should be attractive if the price is right.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

The transport issues within Sydney are similar whether people are catching a train or a plane. In fact public transport to the CBD is obviously much easier than to the airport as the CBD is the "hub" and for most commuters the airport train would be an extra hop. And a very expensive hop at that!

 

[medhead]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

I'm not going to go over things which I've already said.
The clearest indicator of demand is the number of passenger movements.
In 2014 according to the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development's report:
SYD<->MEL was the 3rd busiest air route in the word, with 7.8 million passenger movements in 2014.
SYD<->BNE was 10th with 4.5 million.
BNE<->MEL had 3.3 million.
SYD<->OOL 2.5 million.
The busiest French route is Paris<->Toulouse with 2.3 million.
MEL<->ADL had just under that.
Paris<->Nice had 2 million.
ADL<-> SYD and MEL<->-OOL each had about 1.8 million
There were just under 1 million between each of CBR-SYD and CBR-MEL
ADL<->BNE had about 780,000
ADL<->OOL about 220,000.

So in the BNE-OOL-SYD-CBR-MEL corridor there were almost 22 million passenger movements in 2014.
There are an additional 5 million passenger movements between that corridor and Adelaide.
So that is a total of 27 million passenger movements per year.

In 2010 the number of passenger movements across the entire TGV network in France was 114.5 million.

I really don't think the problem is a lack of passenger numbers. It is a lack of political will.

Have now read a bit more of that nice report that JessicaTam linked. The estimates of passenger trips is interesting. Only 6.3 million per year between Melbourne and Sydney. The big numbers are between the capital cities and the adjacent intermediate areas. Sydney to south/canberra - 23.8m/4.6m, Sydney to north/newcastle 12.4m/3m, Brisbane gold coast 18m, Melbourne to north 35m
Table 2-1 for more detail https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trains/high_speed/files/HSR_Phase_2_Chapter_2.pdf

Wait a sec, only 27 million movements between the above cities by air vs 114.5 million movements on TVG alone without taking into account other options like air travel? Not only is it more than 4 times less passanger movements, it's across a larger physical area.

total estimated journeys at 152 million per year.

 

[PineappleSkip]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Interesting article on the SYD-NTL corridor and high speed rail a week ago

Japanese fast rail expert talks up Sydney to Newcastle link - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

The NSW East Coast, particularly Canberra-Wollongong-Sydney-Newcastle looks like the pay dirt for high speed rail to me. Large cities, close together, with road congestion along the coast. Similarly Sunshine Coast-Brisbane-Gold Coast. Unfortunately a gap of 650 km with not so many intermediate PAX between OOL and NTL, but population growth might make the link viable in say 30 to 50 years.

Cheers skip

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Interesting article on the SYD-NTL corridor and high speed rail a week ago

Japanese fast rail expert talks up Sydney to Newcastle link - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

The NSW East Coast, particularly Canberra-Wollongong-Sydney-Newcastle looks like the pay dirt for high speed rail to me. Large cities, close together, with road congestion along the coast. Similarly Sunshine Coast-Brisbane-Gold Coast. Unfortunately a gap of 650 km with not so many intermediate PAX between OOL and NTL, but population growth might make the link viable in say 30 to 50 years.

Cheers skip

Why should a gap of 650 km be a problem?
The area between Lyon and Paris might be more densely populated but the TGV doesn't stop there.

 

[scubabe]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

I'm going on the Spirit of Queensland from Brisbane to Cairns in May.
It's a 24 hour trip and we've got business seats, I guess they're a bit like J class in a plane... like little pods and have seat-back TVs and at bedtime the train staff lay them down and put a mattress topper on them and make you up a little bed.
We leave at 4pm-ish and get dinner, breakfast, lunch and afternoon tea all served to our seat and get wine or beer with dinner and lunch, and get into Cairns at 4pm-ish the following day.

Cost $400 one-way.

I'm not doing it because I love trains, I'm doing it because my best friend is in love with the romantic idea of a train trip together, and she has stage IV cancer so we're ticking off as many bucket list items as we can in the next couple of months... this is just one of them.

I'm really looking forward to the trip!