General Train Discussion

[esseeeayeenn]

What made Eurail relatively poor value was the availability of discount point-to-point rail fares.

There are some great value fares out there, the example below (Sparpreis Europe) trawled from bahn.com

Oh and those prices are for 1st class, I wouldn't expect any self respecting AFFer to travel 2nd. Or ride on the wretched RER train to CDG.

Not always as good value as this, but find me a comparable airfare PAR-FRA in J and I'll chew on my hat.

Cheers skip

PARIS

FRANKFURT(MAIN)

Th 05.05.16

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Great fares and I agree with the value of first class for intercity travel in Europe.
However I never hesitate to use the RER to CDG.
Whenever I am in Paris I am on the metro constantly, up to a dozen trips per day.
So the RER to the airport seems natural.
I have done it by car but apart from the cost, I found the anxiety of the variable traffic conditions unbearable.
At least the timing of the RER is reasonably predictable.

 

[medhead]

Our last eurorail pass effort involved FRA-Paris-bordeaux-madrid-barcelona-Nice-Rome-Salzburg-Munich-FRA, and a side Rome to Florence day trip. That was for 5 travelling together. When I added up point to point costs, the pass was cheaper but not significantly cheaper. QF5 was 6 hours late into FRA and there was no issue getting onto a later TGV. The Spanish trains had expensive reservation fees, but full in-seat meal service with pre dinner drinks run.

Time before that we got FRA-Munich-Budapest, Vienna-Venice-Munich-FRA-xKoln-FRA, and maybe Munich to Fussen. That last bit to get the real fast train between FRA and Koln. Even got to go into the cabin with the driver, who sped up for the video.

But my last few trips have all been point to point, Thalys and ICE.

 

[Deleted member]

I usually do around 2 return trips between Canberra and Sydney each month. In fact, I just did a CBR-SYD sector this morning. As much as I love flying, I usually take the train for this route because it's just that much more cost effective than flying all the time. I can get unlimited "first class" train travel within NSW and the ACT for 6 months for $550 with a Discovery Pass - that doesn't even cover 2 return trips by plane.

But these train trips do get quite tedious. The trip takes more than 4 hours, and there is no "IFE" as such. At least you get to walk around, buy a hot meal (albeit one of four meals that never change!!!) and get some work done on board - provided your device/s don't run out of battery.

Two weeks ago I travelled from Hamburg to Berlin in Germany. These cities are roughly as far apart as Canberra and Sydney (slightly further, in fact) yet the ICE train trip took well under 2 hours. The connection is so well served by regular high speed trains that there are NO flights between the two cities. They simply aren't needed. I would love to see this kind of high speed rail link in Australia some day. I do believe it will happen, but I don't think we can expect work to begin any time in the next two decades.

Your grandchildren will be old before that even looks like a reality.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

New push for Australia to adopt high-speed rail

 

[JessicaTam]

New push for Australia to adopt high-speed rail

Of course it is only thanks to this thread that discussion has started again.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: Qantas Delays/Cancellations

While I am wary of going off topic, it is worth noting that there are at least 10 million residents in the Sydney - Melbourne corridor. Melbourne is growing by almost 100,000 a year.

Experience overseas shows that high speed rail would capture large market share from the airlines over such a distance as Sydney to Melbourne (and Canberra) PROVIDED that the route was built to the high standards seen in countries such as France, Spain or Japan to name three of many and that there was a mix of express and stopping trains. Careful selections of station locations is also vital.

High speed rail by its nature would induce additional travel far more than any unreliable 'airline system' ever will. It is less subject to delays and cancellations than the airlines provided, of course, that it is operated by a competent entity and that the rollingstock chosen is good quality and built for Australian climatic conditions.

High speed rail also encourages smaller centres - in Australia's case, Albury/Wodonga, Shepparton, Canberra and Wagga plus on the Sydney - Brisbane route cities such as Newcastle, Taree, Coffs Harbour, Grafton and Ballina - to grow and partly take the pressure off the capital cities' constant geographical expansion.

Major airports were originally Commonwealth funded so our predecessors' taxes arguably paid for these.

In 2016 those of us who pay tax fund among many other things improvements to intercapital freeways and sometimes State highways. Not all of us use these, but we still pay as they are seen as essential infrastructure.

Municipal rates are based on capital improved valuations or site values at a particular point in time. By their very nature these are historical.

Whether they rise or fall in relation to an individual residential, commercial or industrial assessment partly depends on the relative level of change in valuation compared to the overall municipal valuation change. Of course sometimes we are all taxed on 'unrealised increases' in values of our homes because the only way to 'realise' the increase is to sell (or perhaps to move and rent the residence out, although rental values are apparently not always directly correlated to CIV or site values.)

As Andrew Robb (Liberal and about to retire from Federal Parliament), probably our best Trade Minister in recent times and Anthony Albanese (Labor and a possible future leadership contender) have recently noted, it is time for Australia to embrace high speed rail and to fund and build it.

It won't be suitable for every mainland airline capital city route - for instance, at this stage, there is probably insufficient volume of passenger movements between Melbourne and Adelaide to justify it, and the distances Sydney or Melbourne to Perth or Darwin are too long (and too sparsely populated in between, and in Darwin's case at its end as well) to see it built there, but lower east coast (Melbourne - Sydney - Brisbane) is vital.

 

[clifford]

Re: Qantas Delays/Cancellations

The problem I see with high speed rail is that it only works if there are no intermediate stops

That seems a strange thing to say. Most high speed trains in the world have intermediate stops (in the larger cities).

For example, I am travelling by train (Italo) from Bologna to Rome later this month and it stops in Firenze (Florence). All in all it takes about 2 hours to cover over 300 km. Maybe not that high speed, but look at the terrain.

Even the TGV's in France and Shinkansen in Japan have intermediate stops.

 

[PineappleSkip]

Re: Qantas Delays/Cancellations

Maybe say it works better without intermediate stops. Also there are stops and there are stops.

The non stop trains from Milan to Rome take 2:55. There are others that stop at Bologna and Firenze that take about 3:20. Bologna is no big deal, pull in and pull out, but Firenze SMN is a stub end station, meaning you pull in, then pull out about 10 minutes later going the other way. Similarly travelling Milano to Napoli almost all of the ES trains pull in to Roma Termini and change direction.

Cheers skip

 

[coco50]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

I, for one, love a good train journey. Unfortunately, train travel in Australia is like the dark ages compared to Europe. Everyone, once in thier life should travel on SNCF or RenFe etc.. and see how good it can be. And seriously competitive in price and time. Yep, I know, we have the tyranny of distance to contend with. But, even though , train travel here is dastardly. T

Next year, I will be doing my inaugural OW RTW in J. A lot of the European sectors will be surface sectors via rail. Wish me luck, start booking in a few weeks

But, I also really love a flight. Both have thier great pleasures. Flying only wins out, because I'm a bit of an Avgeek. (read planespotter)

While in Europe last year I used the train extensively. Eurostar from London to Paris. Thence train from Paris to Lyon. After Lyon, train to Geneva and on to Milan, Rome, Como, Monterosso in the Cinque Terre and back to Milan where we took to the air from MXP. While the train was OK, the only decent meal was on Eurostar. I can understand why terrorists were able to get into France so easily. The only type of border control was leaving the UK at St. Pancras station. The most incredible event was the sector from Lyon to Geneva, where we were leaving the EU to enter Switzerland. I understand the Schengen agreement, and the need for convenience of border crossing but travelling first class on the train, we accessed the platform at Lyon without having to produce a ticket. What was scary was that non-travellers were also on the platform. I know this because I was accosted by men trying to "help" me with my luggage - actually trying to pick my pocket. Instead of pulling my bag away, I drove it into the ribs of the thief and cracked a couple of his ribs. He and his cronies desisted after that. On arrival at Geneva we passed French customs and Swiss customs who showed no interest. We did not have to produce any passports or tickets. Nor was there a ticket inspection on the train. In a way, it was a relief to go through security at MXP. While the train was the way to travel on short hops, I would prefer to fly any day!

 

[dajop]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

we accessed the platform at Lyon without having to produce a ticket. What was scary was that non-travellers were also on the platform. ....... On arrival at Geneva we passed French customs and Swiss customs who showed no interest. We did not have to produce any passports or tickets. Nor was there a ticket inspection on the train.

You can access the platforms of many (most?) non-metro stations in Europe without needing a ticket, as you can at Central station in Sydney and Southern Cross in Melbourne . In any event a just restricting access to those with a ticket does not make the platform any safer, be it against pickpockets or terrorists. Needing a ticket would certainly be no disincentive to professional pickpockets. Many of them ply public transport networks (particularly metros) with the sole aim of theft.

You also mention concern about not having to produce passports or tickets when arriving in Switzerland - that is the whole point of the Schengen agreement, to allow easy travel between Schengen signatory states - just like travel is between the 48 contiguous US states, or Australia's 6 states and 2 territories. The idea is consistent and strong border control between Schengen and non-Schengen territories - which is not so easy when you're not and island. At Basel, for instance, you can easily walk down a street and cross between Switzerland and France or Switzerland and Germany, and barely would know a border exist, apart from customs checkpoints that exist due to Switzerland not being a member of the EU. I see no need for passport control on train travelling between the countries, if you can just walk down the street to travel between them.

Personally, for anything < 5 hrs in Europe train is definitely my preference. It's so nice to get to a station in the centre of town 5 mins before the train is due and just board, no luggage checking, no security etc, and vice versa at the other end, get off right in the centre of town and be done with.

 

[TomVexille]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Needing a ticket would certainly be no disincentive to professional pickpockets. Many of the ply public transport networks with the sole aim of theft.

This happens on aircraft now as well. So needing a ticket definitely isn't a disincentive.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

dajop, just one minor point: while we all used (officially) to be able to access Southern Cross station in Melbourne without a ticket, in the last couple of years all the country (and interstate) platforms have had barriers installed that in theory require a ticket to get through - either a myki smartcard or a V/Line, NSWTrainLink or Great Southern Rail paper ticket.

In practice, however, one can usually walk though as the attendant will open the wide gate at which he or she is standing, and they cannot (themselves) enforce any requirement to have a ticket.

At Central station in Sydney, there are more barriers than was the case 10 years ago but I agree to platforms such as 1 to 3 (or more) in particular at what used to be known as Sydney Terminal railway station, one can get onto the platforms without any ticket.

In Australia meeters and greeters can access the vast majority of domestic air terminals without requiring a ticket: one exception is the tigerair domestic setup in MEL that has changed in the last few months to 'passengers only' beyond the queue (which is airside of security.)

I agree that using a European train is vastly preferable to flying but even longer trips than five hours, including by sleeper trains, are way better by train than by RyanAir or competitors.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

This happens on aircraft now as well. So needing a ticket definitely isn't a disincentive.

TomVexille, without going too OT, how widespread is theft from passengers on planes? I have never been affected: surely the presence of CCTV at most terminals would be at least a slight deterrent.

 

[TomVexille]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

TomVexille, without going too OT, how widespread is theft from passengers on planes? I have never been affected: surely the presence of CCTV at most terminals would be at least a slight deterrent.

It's more about criminal rings who specialize in stealing from overhead lockers onboard as people sleep.

 

[dajop]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

It's more about criminal rings who specialize in stealing from overhead lockers onboard as people sleep.

Mentioned sporadically in the Straits Times in Singapore. Seems to be particularly rife on "money laundering" routes, where people are moving cash and other valuables out of less reliable countries into jurisdictions where banking and property sector is more reliable. Or where there are restrictions on money transfers (not just notification restrictions). Such as routes between South Asia & Middle East, or China/India/Indonesia etc & Singapore. Wouldn't be surprised if routes between mainland China and Australia are also targetted.

 

[wandering_fred]

A mixed message for trains

As this is a train discussion...
My last trip to London, I decided I didn't want to pay the UK APD so looked at the Eurostar (open jaw back from CDG). At a month in advance it was 109 pounds. Err, thank you no.

The next bit is for the chronically stingy or those retired on a budget. I looked at "the bus". As a senior advance purchase to Lille, it was very (very very) cheap. The bus simply drove on to the train at the English end and exited back to the road once in France. As well, the TGV from Lille stopped at CDG, something the Eurostar was unlikely to do.

Plus was the difference in fares paid for one night's stay in Lille. The minus was the unbelievable length of time it took to exit the spaghetti of British roads leaving London for the Channel Tunnel.

Lille was an interesting stop.

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[seanpodge]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

While in Europe last year I used the train extensively. Eurostar from London to Paris. Thence train from Paris to Lyon. After Lyon, train to Geneva and on to Milan, Rome, Como, Monterosso in the Cinque Terre and back to Milan where we took to the air from MXP. While the train was OK, the only decent meal was on Eurostar. I can understand why terrorists were able to get into France so easily. The only type of border control was leaving the UK at St. Pancras station. The most incredible event was the sector from Lyon to Geneva, where we were leaving the EU to enter Switzerland. I understand the Schengen agreement, and the need for convenience of border crossing but travelling first class on the train, we accessed the platform at Lyon without having to produce a ticket. What was scary was that non-travellers were also on the platform. I know this because I was accosted by men trying to "help" me with my luggage - actually trying to pick my pocket. Instead of pulling my bag away, I drove it into the ribs of the thief and cracked a couple of his ribs. He and his cronies desisted after that. On arrival at Geneva we passed French customs and Swiss customs who showed no interest. We did not have to produce any passports or tickets. Nor was there a ticket inspection on the train. In a way, it was a relief to go through security at MXP. While the train was the way to travel on short hops, I would prefer to fly any day!

France and Switzerland are part of the Schengen Zone, so there is no immigration controls between the two counties. The UK is not part of Schengen, so you need to go through immigration to travel on Eurostar.

Re: allowing non passengers on to platforms, after seeing how the ticket holder only system works in China, I'm all for open access to the platforms. Passengers are basically held in rooms or waiting halls until just before departure, at most 10 minutes before departure. Then suddenly everyone will be herded through a narrow gate where a token ticket inspection will take place and then go down to the platform and rush onto the train before it departs. The term organised chaos comes to mind. How it doesn't regularly end in deadly stampedes is beyond me. Obviously theft is an issue, but train tickets are cheap compared to what can be stolen, especially cash. A train ticket would just be a business cost for professional thieves.

Note: Friends and family (and presumably thieves) who want to see off train passengers in China can buy a special platform only ticket for a token sum, I think about ¥1-¥3 (about 20¢ to 60¢). Not sure if one needs ID to buy this type of ticket as one does for buying regular tickets.

 

[coco50]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

the whole point of the Schengen agreement, to allow easy travel between Schengen signatory states - just like travel is between the 48 contiguous US states, or Australia's 6 states and 2 territories. .

I did mention that I understood the purpose of the Schengen agreement. Travel between Schengen signatories is NOT like travel between the states of CONUS or the 6 Australian states. These European nations are sovereign nations where the US and Australian states are not sovereign in that they cannot make treaties with other nations. The Montevideo Convention defines state sovereignty. ‘Sovereignty is the power of a state to do everything necessary to
govern itself. The government must be capable of exercising supreme
power’. This includes:
◗ the ability to make, execute and apply laws (separation of powers)
◗ imposing and collecting taxes
◗ the ability to make war and peace
◗ making treaties and agreements
◗ engaging in trade and commerce with foreign nations.

 

[coco50]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Re: allowing non passengers on to platforms, after seeing how the ticket holder only system works in China, I'm all for open access to the platforms.

How about open access to departure lounges at airports, then?

 

[medhead]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

While I am wary of going off topic, it is worth noting that there are at least 10 million residents in the Sydney - Melbourne corridor. Melbourne is growing by almost 100,000 a year.

It's interesting that the study into the Australian HSR project estimated 35 millions trips per year between Melbourne and the "intermediate" area to the north of Melbourne. That was the highest demand for travel that they reported.

I did mention that I understood the purpose of the Schengen agreement. Travel between Schengen signatories is NOT like travel between the states of CONUS or the 6 Australian states. These European nations are sovereign nations where the US and Australian states are not sovereign in that they cannot make treaties with other nations. The Montevideo Convention defines state sovereignty. ‘Sovereignty is the power of a state to do everything necessary to
govern itself. The government must be capable of exercising supreme
power’. This includes:
◗ the ability to make, execute and apply laws (separation of powers)
◗ imposing and collecting taxes
◗ the ability to make war and peace
◗ making treaties and agreements
◗ engaging in trade and commerce with foreign nations.

I understood the point of the Schengen treaty was to make travel between the agreement countries functionally the same as between those other examples. They've used their sovereign powers to make it so that there are no border controls. It was the mechanism of crossing between jurisdictions that was compared not the governance arrangement.

Also I understood that the Australian states came together at federation to allow the Australian government, via the constitution, to exercise some of their sovereign powers. Wouldn't that make them sovereign states by proxy?

In any case, there are border and security checks for Spanish trains at the northern border crossing from France at Irun, and also in Madrid. I can't remember if there was security in Barcelona.