General Train Discussion

[coco50]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

It's interesting that the study into the Australian HSR project estimated 35 millions trips per year between Melbourne and the "intermediate" area to the north of Melbourne. That was the highest demand for travel that they reported.




I understood the point of the Schengen treaty was to make travel between the agreement countries functionally the same as between those other examples. They've used their sovereign powers to make it so that there are no border controls. It was the mechanism of crossing between jurisdictions that was compared not the governance arrangement.

Also I understood that the Australian states came together at federation to allow the Australian government, via the constitution, to exercise some of their sovereign powers. Wouldn't that make them sovereign states by proxy?

In any case, there are border and security checks for Spanish trains at the northern border crossing from France at Irun, and also in Madrid. I can't remember if there was security in Barcelona.

Interesting to note that with the Syrian refugee crisis in Europe, some Schengen states are now exercising their sovereignty by placing controls on which refugees can enter a country's borders. Maybe there will be a rethink on the Schengen agreement. Australian states are not sovereign. They do not meet the test of the Montevideo Convention of being able to make treaties and agreements with nations

 

[medhead]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Interesting to note that with the Syrian refugee crisis in Europe, some Schengen states are now exercising their sovereignty by placing controls on which refugees can enter a country's borders. Maybe there will be a rethink on the Schengen agreement. Australian states are not sovereign. They do not meet the test of the Montevideo Convention of being able to make treaties and agreements with nations

My contention is that the Australian states have given that power to the Commonwealth to act as their proxy.

 

[coco50]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

My contention is that the Australian states have given that power to the Commonwealth to act as their proxy.

Section 51 of the Constitution enumerates the specified powers of the Australian government. The external affairs power is part (xxix). When the colonies surrendered this power (if they ever had it at all) they ceased to be sovereign in the complete sense of the term. To act as a proxy implies some sort of consultation. The Australian government doesn't need to consult with the states when signing a treaty. In fact there have been some pretty good legal stoushes between states and the Commonwealth over the Commonwealth exercising its external affairs power where states were not consulted. The Franklin Dam case where the HCA ruled that the Commonwealth had to power to prevent Tasmania from building a dam on the Gordon River is once example.

 

[seanpodge]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Re: allowing non passengers on to platforms, after seeing how the ticket holder only system works in China, I'm all for open access to the platforms.

How about open access to departure lounges at airports, then?

Presumably for international flights, there would be far too much hassle with border control and customs/duty free to make it work in a practical way.

For domestic, I don't think it'd be a major problem as long as they went through the same security checks as other passengers. One or two thieves might go through, but airports are pretty well policed and there are potential thieves everywhere, so as bad as having things stolen is, it's a bit extreme to start banning broad sections of people from places just because of that.

Besides, I'm sure the shopping ma..., sorry, airports would love it. More people buying things at the shops and restaurants.

 

[coco50]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Presumably for international flights, there would be far too much hassle with border control and customs/duty free to make it work in a practical way.

For domestic, I don't think it'd be a major problem as long as they went through the same security checks as other passengers. One or two thieves might go through, but airports are pretty well policed and there are potential thieves everywhere, so as bad as having things stolen is, it's a bit extreme to start banning broad sections of people from places just because of that.

Besides, I'm sure the shopping ma..., sorry, airports would love it. More people buying things at the shops and restaurants.

You have just provided all readers of this thread with a number of very good reasons to prefer flying over train travel!!

 

[seanpodge]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

You have just provided all readers of this thread with a number of very good reasons to prefer flying over train travel!!

Whoops, that wasn't my intention.

That said, you're all biased anyway, so....

In defence of trains in China, I've traveled on trains in China at least 20 times and have never had anything stolen or anyone even try to steal from me. Some of the crowds during Chinese New Year however....:shock:

 

[Cruiser Elite]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

after seeing how the ticket holder only system works in China, I'm all for open access to the platforms. Passengers are basically held in rooms or waiting halls until just before departure, at most 10 minutes before departure. Then suddenly everyone will be herded through a narrow gate where a token ticket inspection will take place and then go down to the platform and rush onto the train before it departs. The term organised chaos comes to mind. How it doesn't regularly end in deadly stampedes is beyond me. Obviously theft is an issue, but train tickets are cheap compared to what can be stolen, especially cash. A train ticket would just be a business cost for professional thieves.

In defence of trains in China, I've traveled on trains in China at least 20 times and have never had anything stolen or anyone even try to steal from me. Some of the crowds during Chinese New Year however....:shock:

I have done hundreds of China train trips over 20yrs and have NEVER seen anybody injured during the stampedes from 'Waiting Hall' to ticket check to stairs / escalators to platform - NEVER - to Westerners this is no doubt a phenomena but somehow this is how China works.

As for thieves in train stations YES they are everywhere - but your one true salvation is that ALL average Joe Chinese travellers are also well aware of their existence and the Chinese HATE thieves with a passion - on a number of occasions I have seen 'civil arrests' by groups of said average Joe Chinese travellers when they spot thieves in action - by 'civil arrests' I mean a group of 10, 15 or 20 average bods wresting thief to ground and sitting on them til Plod arrives - Plod then quite happy to dispense 'street justice' in front of everybody before literally dragging thief/s off.

I have lost count of the number of times I have been travelling trains with 2 big suitcases and a roller bag - always in Waiting Hall at least 30mins prior to departure - no need to just sit beside your bags entire time - make eye contact with a Chinese family group / group travelling together and just motion with your hand to your eyes then to your bags - you know like 'Will you please watch these?' - you'll get a head nod or a thumbs up and I gotta tell you god help the thieves if they tried to touch your bags whilst you take a 2 to 5 min stretch of your legs - I just love Chinese people - such a genuine lovely race of people.

And whilst above may be bordering OT - I will say when considering a fast train service in Australia if you could take the Chinese example of high speed train Shanghai to Beijing it certainly is an eye opener:

Melbourne to Brisbane drive:



Shanghai to Beijing drive:



Shanghai to Beijing CRH train:



This is one train journey ALL should undertake - self catering advised. Am currently in planning stage to complete this journey again but next time with cheap esky stacked with a couple bottle of Champers.

 

[Hvr]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

<snip>

Re: allowing non passengers on to platforms, after seeing how the ticket holder only system works in China, I'm all for open access to the platforms. Passengers are basically held in rooms or waiting halls until just before departure, at most 10 minutes before departure. Then suddenly everyone will be herded through a narrow gate where a token ticket inspection will take place and then go down to the platform and rush onto the train before it departs. The term organised chaos comes to mind. How it doesn't regularly end in deadly stampedes is beyond me. Obviously theft is an issue, but train tickets are cheap compared to what can be stolen, especially cash. A train ticket would just be a business cost for professional thieves.

<snip>

Exactly the same system as Amtrak in the USA. I've boarded trains in New York, Boston and Philadelphia and you weren't advised of the platform until a few minutes before departure.

The one time I caught a train in China (Bejing-Harbin) I was basically put into a waiting room by station staff and then directed to the correct platform once advised. This was appreciated as a monolingual English speaker.

 

[seanpodge]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

To clarify on the theft issue, I didn't mean to say that theft was a major problem in Chinese railway stations (or anywhere else in China, for that matter), just that it can happen anywhere whether on a train in China or back in Melbourne. It's just a fact of life, sadly.

I have done hundreds of China train trips over 20yrs and have NEVER seen anybody injured during the stampedes from 'Waiting Hall' to ticket check to stairs / escalators to platform - NEVER - to Westerners this is no doubt a phenomena but somehow this is how China works.

I've never seen injuries either, but the holding back of passengers until a wave just before departure seems unnecessary to me, especially where the train is originating at that station. Seems needlessly chaotic. I've even been held in the waiting room of stations where there are only about four services a day. The lack of a "queuing culture", for want of a better term, doesn't help much. I think they could at least extend the time between allowing access to the platform and the train departing. That said, we know from this forum that people like priority boarding, even if it just means sitting in a small metal tube for an extra few minutes, so my idea might not be all that useful.

Also, the stations are presumably built with this system in mind so it's going to be hard to change it now. At least the new, major HSR stations do this system better than the older, smaller and/or rural (by Chinese standards) stations I've been to. Exiting the new stations is also much better than at the old stations where a trainful of passengers is funneled through a narrow set of gates. They are nicer places to wait, too.

This is one train journey ALL should undertake - self catering advised. Am currently in planning stage to complete this journey again but next time with cheap esky stacked with a couple bottle of Champers.

Agree about the catering. Better and cheaper to BYO.

 

[coco50]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Whoops, that wasn't my intention.

That said, you're all biased anyway, so....

In defence of trains in China, I've traveled on trains in China at least 20 times and have never had anything stolen or anyone even try to steal from me. Some of the crowds during Chinese New Year however....:shock:

I've only travelled on a train in China once - from Guangzhou to Hong Kong. One African American in our group was questioned heavily by the Border Guards because his passport, which he always carried in his coat pocket was pretty battered. They thought he was a CIA agent. We nearly didn't see him again. No wonder the Chinese are reasonably law-abiding on the rail system!

 

[JessicaTam]

So it takes twice as long on the train from Shanghai to Beijing as to drive! An interesting trip, no doubt. I look forward to the trip report.

 

[get me outta here]

This is a very diverse thread, I thought I'd stumbled into the train thread at first. I like the idea of a train from Shanghai to Beijing. What's the scenery like? Is it best to go F, and emachisit?

 

[clifford]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Exactly the same system as Amtrak in the USA. I've boarded trains in New York, Boston and Philadelphia and you weren't advised of the platform until a few minutes before departure.

Sounds like the London mainline stations.

 

[kelvedon]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Sounds like the London mainline stations.

Yep, have come across this at Paddington. Might well be to keep the platform clear for the disembarking passengers at Terminus Stations.

 

[get me outta here]

Doesn't the route map say it's the other way round?

So it takes twice as long on the train from Shanghai to Beijing as to drive! An interesting trip, no doubt. I look forward to the trip report.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Exactly the same system as Amtrak in the USA. I've boarded trains in New York, Boston and Philadelphia and you weren't advised of the platform until a few minutes before departure.

Sounds like the London mainline stations.

I've experienced a similar thing boarding the TGV in Lyon (at the airport station).

 

[wandering_fred]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Exactly the same system as Amtrak in the USA. I've boarded trains in New York, Boston and Philadelphia and you weren't advised of the platform until a few minutes before departure.
...

Or perhaps DFW in late summer ? Or is that because the gates change?

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[JessicaTam]

Doesn't the route map say it's the other way round?

Umm, no. But I am sure the times would be similar regardless.

 

[Colin 2905]

This is a very diverse thread, I thought I'd stumbled into the train thread at first.

Yeah, there's been a few derailments but it seems to be back on track now.

 

[Cruiser Elite]

Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Sorry for confusion - I posted pics cough about - fixed now.