General Train Discussion

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Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

coco50, this is a discussion about a subject other than politics. While we all accept that most funding questions involve politics, perhaps your comment is better suited to the AFF so-called 'playground.'

It's a fair comment about the idea. one that has been raised in related news reporting. No one is forcing you to engage in that aspect of the high speed rail idea.

I like that the plan includes the need for high speed rail to the new badegery's creek airport. FRA is an excellent model in that regard.
 
Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

medhead, isn't one other good model Oslo in that regard too? I haven't travelled on it but have seen it leave Oslo's main railway station for its airport. Allegedly it is well patronised with a goodish market share.
 
Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

medhead, isn't one other good model Oslo in that regard too? I haven't travelled on it but have seen it leave Oslo's main railway station. Allegedly it is well patronised with a goodish market share.

I haven't used Oslo, but accept your view. Brussels is another airport that I experienced last year. jumped on the train at Bruges and it went to BRU. Pretty darn good idea. At FRA it is great to just walk down to the station to jump on the train to Paris or Munich (my 2 examples), but any number of other possibilities. The destinations are more limited with Western Sydney. But it would have to be a good feature to have 1 hour from Goulburn/Canberra/Newcastle to/from the airport for international departures.

If I knew I could fly into western sydney jump on a train and be at central station in 15 minutes, that'd be great as well.
 
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Perhaps the route to Shepparton could be via MEL?

The HST is just another of Turnbull's thought bubbles. He says that he supports the concept but there will be no federal funds for it. I support the idea of me being a millionaire, but unfortunately there are no federal funds for it
 
Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

I haven't used Oslo, but accept your view. Brussels is another airport that I experienced last year. jumped on the train at Bruges and it when to BRU. Pretty darn good idea. At FRA it is great to just walk down to the station to jump on the train to Paris or Munich (my 2 examples), but any number of other possibilities.
There certainly are lots of examples in Europe, where Governments have been far sighted enough to make it happen (or at least facilitate it). Examples I've personally used (in addition to those listed above) include MAN, BHX, STN, LGW, AMS, FCO, CDG, CPH, etc...

I'd be surprised if anything more than a fastish link from Badgery's Creek to Sydney was built here, and who knows when. Think small, get small, infrastructure wise.
 
Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

I'd be surprised if anything more than a fastish link from Badgery's Creek to Sydney was built here, and who knows when. Think small, get small, infrastructure wise.

Any bets on the price to the CBD? I'm guessing as you say a "fastish" link will probably have a single trip price of $40 or more ...
 
Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

I'd be surprised if anything more than a fastish link from Badgery's Creek to Sydney was built here, and who knows when. Think small, get small, infrastructure wise.

The news story/thought bubble seemed to suggest adding Badgery's Creek to the high speed line heading south rather than a separate line.

Any bets on the price to the CBD? I'm guessing as you say a "fastish" link will probably have a single trip price of $40 or more ...

Depends how they do it, if added to the line to Canberra I'd say $40 is way too high. They shouldn't have to dig, what, 10 km of tunnels for Baddgery's creek as they did for SYD. SYD train pricing doesn't seem applicable.
 
Re: You know you are a frequent flyer when ...

Any bets on the price to the CBD? I'm guessing as you say a "fastish" link will probably have a single trip price of $40 or more ...


How much will it cost to get to the city in both dollars and time by other means?
 
Anyone remember this in 1984, the VFT. I saw plenty of artists impressions back then of the route, trains and trains along the way roaring down 1 in 30 grades at high speed through the Snowy Mountains.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_Fast_Train_Joint_Venture


All I can say is go a buy a lottery ticket, that's better odds on coming off. What would be more cost effective would be for a western Sydney airport line to simpley connect in at Leppington (as it does now) and be able to turn left or right, so electric train to the city and then runs to the central coast or diesel train to Canberra and the south.

Make the diesel train a One World service and you might have a hope of getting people onto it.
 
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I'd be interested in seeing a proper cost /benefit analysis on the concept of the fast train. Is it truly going to generate new wealth / tax revenue? Or will it simply be a transfer, i.e. from the airlines and outer-suburban real estate values to the train operators and regional cities?

Surely the funds would be far more economically effective in rebuilding & future-proofing Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane's mass-transit systems? Both Sydney and Melbourne are planned to hit 8m+ by mid-century and the currently planned projects like the Melbourne Metro are only nibbling around the edges.

To fund it all i'd be fine with them 'capturing value' and / or having a % taxation levy for all workers and companies living or operating within a certain radius of each of those cities. The cost of borrowing for nations such as ours is currently so low that it'd be criminal not to borrow and do infrastructure properly.

But then look at what the NBN has become for an example of what happens without a bipartisan, multi-decades long commitment...
 
I'd be interested in seeing a proper cost /benefit analysis on the concept of the fast train. Is it truly going to generate new wealth / tax revenue? Or will it simply be a transfer, i.e. from the airlines and outer-suburban real estate values to the train operators and regional cities?

Surely the funds would be far more economically effective in rebuilding & future-proofing Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane's mass-transit systems? Both Sydney and Melbourne are planned to hit 8m+ by mid-century and the currently planned projects like the Melbourne Metro are only nibbling around the edges.

To fund it all i'd be fine with them 'capturing value' and / or having a % taxation levy for all workers and companies living or operating within a certain radius of each of those cities. The cost of borrowing for nations such as ours is currently so low that it'd be criminal not to borrow and do infrastructure properly.

But then look at what the NBN has become for an example of what happens without a bipartisan, multi-decades long commitment...


Simple info here, but while there are lots of studies the bigger project the wilder the numbers can be made to look to either support or argue against it.

High Speed Rail | ARA
 
So a week or so ago I experienced the Amtrak Cascades from Vancouver, BC to Seattle, WA. While the scenery was rather nice, the train itself (in business class) was nothing special. The Europeans put the yanks to shame on the train front. The 6am departure didn't do the experience any favours. I think I'd prefer to fly next time.
 
To fund it all i'd be fine with them 'capturing value' and / or having a % taxation levy for all workers and companies living or operating within a certain radius of each of those cities.

And watch the businesses move as fast as they can.

"Value capturing"...is another term for a tax. On a value that is unrealised and probably make believe.
 
And watch the businesses move as fast as they can.

"Value capturing"...is another term for a tax. On a value that is unrealised and probably make believe.

So Australia should never develop further economically?

That sort of view would be laughed at in Japan, Turkey, Spain, France, mainland China, Taiwan and Singapore to name a few.

Those who take risks with capital are often rewarded. We do this at a micro level if we extend our homes: often that occurs with borrowed money.

Many increases in 'value' are 'unrealised': investors who hold shares may not sell for long periods (or at all) but they can benefit from any increase in 'value' by selling some or all of their portfolio. They might also receive growth in dividends.

Levying an amount on beneficiaries has already occurred to a limited extent in Australia with previous infrastructure projects. No one even mentions it today among those businesses that paid such a levy at the time years ago. The value uplift has often been a huge multiple of any levy.

High speed rail has been very successful in multiple countries, including over some Australian lower east coast equivalent distances. The technology is continuing to advance. We have the population on the lower east coast to support it. Importantly, we also have the travel demand.

The alternative is to continue to be stuck with suboptimal air travel that while in theory great will never attract the number of intercapital or intrastate passenger journeys that a competently built and operated - note use of the word 'competent' - high speed rail network would induce. Nor does air travel aid the development of smaller cities in the way that true high speed rail does.

We have many hindrances: the CFMEU, unbelievably high building costs in the unionised larger commercial (and industrial) sectors, incredibly detailed, burdensome and bureaucratic planning, environmental, native title and noise emissions requirements and multiple layers of governments.

Can we still build today's equivalent of the Snowy Mountains Scheme in high speed rail? Open question, but naysayers (some of whom include airlines and airport managers because they know the experience overseas in how high speed trains, depending on distance have either knocked them for six or at the very least on longer routes caused moderate loss of market share) should not be allowed to control the debate.

We need foreign expertise to assist. Companies are lining up to undertake the work even though the project is not even at an 'EOI' stage.

It is not impossible that a company such as Qantas or whatever form Virgin Australia (Singapore Air Inc?) or a second domestic airline takes in future years may want to get on board and become part of a consortium.
 
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If it is so important to the country, then all of the population should bear the burden. Value capturing is rubbish, and is simply a selective tax. How would you feel about contributing $50,000 or more because someone says your house value might go up..,and by the way, pay up now.

As you like it so much, I expect your cheque is already written.
 
If it is so important to the country, then all of the population should bear the burden. Value capturing is rubbish, and is simply a selective tax. How would you feel about contributing $50,000 or more because someone says your house value might go up..,and by the way, pay up now.

As you like it so much, I expect your cheque is already written.

And where do you begin to make a decision on where the line is drawn? In built up areas is it (for arguments sake) two streets away from the line or three? A bureaucratic nightmare!
 
Yes, I would be happy to pay a levy.

If our democracy properly functions (and yes, that's open to question), those in government will determine a solution. The community can have input via the ballot box or other means highlighted at the time. I doubt that such major decisions would occur these days without some public input although one of the reasons Australia is falling behind in infrastructure provision is the slow processes we have in this country.

It might be that residential homeowners with property below a certain value were exempt, or that any levy only applied to the commercial and industrial sectors.

Scaremongering or becoming needlessly worried is unhelpful. Just keep abreast of the debate and while some of us may have a negative view of the media, read, watch or listen to it (if you can bear it.)

The 'line was drawn' QFflyermelbourne, in some previous infrastructure projects. It is a public policy question that may be challenging but is not without solutions.
 
And watch the businesses move as fast as they can.

"Value capturing"...is another term for a tax. On a value that is unrealised and probably make believe.

Noting new about taxes on make believe values. States have been doing it with land taxes for donkeys' years

Cheers skip
 
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