General Train Discussion

[Franky]

And that narrow corridor would comprise most of the 'centre of the universe' part of Australia between Melbourne and Brisbane..

 

[medhead]

Really can't understand why this is so hard.
A small corridor with a large population and very frequent travel movements between 2 to 3 cities at the ends of those corridors. As the PM has mention HSR is a solution to the population and housing problem in Sydney and Melbourne. HSR makes commuting from nearby regional towns with cheaper housing a viable proposition. That then increases the size of those regional towns.

We're talking 10 million people along that corridor. I'm sure that any 800 km train route in Germany with access 10 million people or less. We can take say Cologne to Munich HSR train between those two cities stops at 4 cities and the total population for all 6 cities is approx. 3.9 million. No one is suggesting that HSR would cover all of Australia. Pretty misleading to pretend that is being suggested. The idea is targeted implementation.

HSR could reduce the need for flights between cities, 15 minute flights schedules are not an argument against HSR.

But again all of this has been covered in the latest report. So we don't need to rely on opinions about demographics. Maybe some people could try reading the report before the naysaying starts. Certainly there have been a number of reports, no doubt because change and vision is confronting. Apparently pre-conceived ideas are more important.

 

[harvyk]

So interesting wikipedia page -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Germany

You've picked a country which has a total population 4 times larger than Australia, in an area half that of New South Wales, and in the half NSW there are 14 population centres with over half a million people.
To make this an apples for apples comparison, we would effectively need to put the entire population of Australia into northern NSW, with Canberra sized cities every 150 to 200km between Sydney and Brisbane.

To put some of the distances you're talking about, SYD-MEL is roughly Berlin to Paris, BNE-MEL is a little longer than Berlin to Rome. In each case, pretty standard distances here in Australia and yet we're talking going through multiple countries (and their populations) in Europe. To put it bluntly, no example from Europe will work in our situation. Find a working example from Canada, they are probably our closest analogue for size and population.

 

[Melburnian1]

So interesting wikipedia page -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Germany

You've picked a country which has a total population 4 times larger than Australia, in an area half that of New South Wales, and in the half NSW there are 14 population centres with over half a million people.
To make this an apples for apples comparison, we would effectively need to put the entire population of Australia into northern NSW, with Canberra sized cities every 150 to 200km between Sydney and Brisbane.

To put some of the distances you're talking about, SYD-MEL is roughly Berlin to Paris, BNE-MEL is a little longer than Berlin to Rome. In each case, pretty standard distances here in Australia and yet we're talking going through multiple countries (and their populations) in Europe. To put it bluntly, no example from Europe will work in our situation. Find a working example from Canada, they are probably our closest analogue for size and population.

harvyk, you are missing the point.

It is not just about total population, but about GDP and travel demand, and induced travel demand if high speed rail was provided.

That SYD - MEL is the fourth (last time I read it) busiest air route in the world says something. BNE - SYD is about number 13 if I recall. SYD - CBR and CBR - MEL, plus SYD - OOL and so on add further demand in the strip.

It's also about purchasing power and disposable income, because if citizens have more of the latter then they may well have the moolah to take extra intrastate or interstate journeys.

I agree with medhead that the opponents of high speed rail are overly negative. Certainly it may require a recurrent expenditure government subsidy - that 'depends' on this value capture concept's success, perhaps - but once we have this new way of travelling between east coast cities, we'll wonder how we got on without it, just as we do with the Internet, smartphones, GPS and Netflix.

I don't expect huge numbers to travel between BNE and MEL on a high speed train, but SYD - MEL, SYD - CBR, MEL - CBR, ABX and WGA - SYD/ MEL, Shepparton - MEL, SYD - NTL, SYD - TRO, SYD - CFS, NTL - OOL, SYD - OOL, NTL - BNE, SYD - GFN, SYD - BNK or close to it, NTL - BNK, CFS - OOL are just a few of the (to use an airline term) 'city pairs' that would enjoy usage.

I doubt that ADL - MEL is viable (at least for many years, or until high speed trains proved themselves and there was a clamour for them elsewhere) and as medhead says, no one proposes high speed rail across the Nullabor, to DRW or initially at least between BNE - TSV - CNS: either distances are too great, or travel demand or populations too small.

We are spending far too much time as a nation arguing about this sort of infrastructure. The approach in many other countries would be just to build it.

 

[UP4014]

While we talk of say 10M people along the route, the issue is in Europe there is also another 290M which can feed into the route.

Matt

 

[Jmrocky]

All well and good, but another significant difference is that Germany has almost 3.5x the population and 3.5x the GNP of Australia in an area less than half that of NSW. Difficult to compare apples to oranges.

My example of Germany was to address the points raised, I realise geographically they are different but that wasn't what I was replying to.

The fact of the matter is there probably isn't a cookie cutter HSR design we can pinch from another nation, much like there wasn't one when Chifley and the SMA started down the path of the Snowy scheme. They employed design experts in their relevant fields, saw what other countries were doing (Thailand etc.) in their respective environments. Consider those conditions before starting, we are the driest inhabited continent on earth, no scheme at the time had anywhere near the level of tunnel complexity, 5 years after a world war, very little domestic hydro experience etc. etc.

Australia's history is littered with engineering exploits like this. HSR in Australia, in my opinion, pales in comparison to a lot of those in terms of hardship, it is simply the faffing and political ineptitude of the matter combined with most of the general public who, for the most part, wouldn't know a good solution if it hit them in the a***.

 

[CaptJCool]

So it requires a Labor Govt to approve it ? Chiefly

 

[harvyk]

OK, so I'm really going to confuse people and post an article for the affirmative side.

The real point of high speed rail: property development

John Alexander, an advocate for fast rail since he entered Parliament in 2010, said high speed rail would "liberate" regional towns, potentially tripling property prices and relieving housing pressure in the capital cities.

Now before you say "but aren't you against the idea", I never actually said I was against the idea, I was against people saying "it works in Europe / Asia so it MUST be able to work here".

All the arguments which attempted to talk up the BNE-MEL corridor as being even close to the same population or total network as Europe was meaningless. But this article looks at it as a way of expanding the existing large cities out into regional area's which are really too far to be able to commute in via conventional methods.
It doesn't expect to take the place of air (which it can't, too slow and too expensive), instead it expands the usable area of a major city.

 

[Major]

Has anyone been on this trip ?

https://www.youtube.com/embed/p5AyEe5xWkQ

 

[JessicaTam]

Has anyone been on this trip ?

https://www.youtube.com/embed/p5AyEe5xWkQ

Yes. I did it about three years ago.

Brilliant trip. We were there in March, and it was interesting travelling through the snow with skiers zipping by.

 

[UP4014]

OK, so I'm really going to confuse people and post an article for the affirmative side.

The real point of high speed rail: property development



Now before you say "but aren't you against the idea", I never actually said I was against the idea, I was against people saying "it works in Europe / Asia so it MUST be able to work here".

All the arguments which attempted to talk up the BNE-MEL corridor as being even close to the same population or total network as Europe was meaningless. But this article looks at it as a way of expanding the existing large cities out into regional area's which are really too far to be able to commute in via conventional methods.
It doesn't expect to take the place of air (which it can't, too slow and too expensive), instead it expands the usable area of a major city.

Property development is how the original rail barons made their money to pay for more rail to make yet more money!

Stand by now the election is coming for pictures of bullet trains on blurry backgrounds and the transport policy you can pull out of the draw before an election and put back in the draw afterward. The policy that is on a 3 yearly cycle.

Matt

 

[Franky]

I don't believe harvyk has missed the point at all, I believe he has nailed it. I have travelled on HSR in China, Japan and parts of Europe and love it, but we have totally different circumstances that apply here.

 

[dajop]

But this article looks at it as a way of expanding the existing large cities out into regional area's which are really too far to be able to commute in via conventional methods.
It doesn't expect to take the place of air (which it can't, too slow and too expensive), instead it expands the usable area of a major city.

The question is, does that sort of expansion into regional areas need to rely on HSR between major cities, or is better spending money on HSR radiating out of major cities? Vic govt have been slowly evolving less-slow rail to regional centres, seem to have done OK with Geelong, but still not quite there yet for other centres - many services are still quite slow (for example Melbourne-Bendigo 160km with rolling stock that travels up to 160 kph still takes 2 hrs for most services that stop at most stations, except single daily commuter services that take 1.5 hrs. It would nice to see those reduced to ~ 1hr for express and 90 minutes for all stops).

The main technical issues, as far as I understand between MEL & SYD are between Albury and Canberra. Maybe better off initially building shorter services, maybe Mel-Shepparton and Syd-Canberra if the aim is expansion into regional areas as commuter centres.

 

[Jmrocky]

The question is, does that sort of expansion into regional areas need to rely on HSR between major cities, or is better spending money on HSR radiating out of major cities? Vic govt have been slowly evolving less-slow rail to regional centres, seem to have done OK with Geelong, but still not quite there yet for other centres - many services are still quite slow (for example Melbourne-Bendigo 160km with rolling stock that travels up to 160 kph still takes 2 hrs for most services that stop at most stations, except single daily commuter services that take 1.5 hrs. It would nice to see those reduced to ~ 1hr for express and 90 minutes for all stops).

The main technical issues, as far as I understand between MEL & SYD are between Albury and Canberra. Maybe better off initially building shorter services, maybe Mel-Shepparton and Syd-Canberra if the aim is expansion into regional areas as commuter centres.

From reading the report (I just closed it and can't be bothered re-opening) gold cost - newcastle is the last stage, primarily because of passenger movement compared to the rest (i.e. lower). Price wise around Sydney is by far the dearest due to tunnel issues. Outside Sydney and down to Melbourne via Canberra are cheap as land is available and Canberra and Melbourne have the space available without tunneling.

I really encourage people to read the executive summary of the latest report, don't rely on news.com articles for you info. It's all there (including property investment in and outlying cities and subsequent growth being one of the main business drivers).

 

[whatmeworry]

I think we need HSR as an insurance policy. Two reasons I can think of initially. Volcano's and oil supply. In the western districts of Victoria a Volcano is overdue. Secondly, what is the replacement for fossil fuels for jets? Biofuels?

 

[dajop]

One thing I have mixed feelings about (can see arguments on both sides), but sometimes wonder if it would beneficial for Australia and all all involved would be to build major rail (and other infrastructure) projects by doing what Singapore and Dubai does, and import some foreign labour to build them (but with higher safety and human rights standards).

I know it would never get support of the unionsor human rights lobby, so is merely a thought bubble, but can't help think it would create a lot more supervisory positions for union members and provide a good source of income and support for some much poorer families. Provide accommodation and food, pay 1/6 of what Australians earn and about 10x what the group would earn at home and get the job done .......

 

[coco50]

Passenger rail over long distances in Australia is not economically viable. Freight rail could be.

 

[harvyk]

One thing I have mixed feelings about (can see arguments on both sides), but sometimes wonder if it would beneficial for Australia and all all involved would be to build major rail (and other infrastructure) projects by doing what Singapore and Dubai does, and import some foreign labour to build them (but with higher safety and human rights standards).

What you are basically suggesting is that we get slaves to build it for us.
Whilst I can't speak for Singapore, in Dubai it is well known that it's foreign workforce is effectively slave labour, complete with extremely bad conditions. They are indentured servants as they "borrow" the money to move to Dubai, they are then unable to leave the country until their debt is paid off.

As far as I'm concerned, if we get someone to build this for us, we should be paying them a fair days wage for a fair days labour. (and no, I'm not a union member, yes I realise the irony of writing this on something which was probably made by someone getting paid $1 an hour)

 

[Franky]

Passenger rail over long distances in Australia is not economically viable. Freight rail could be.

Indeed - just check out the exorbitant increases just announced for the Trans Australia, Ghan and whatever the train is called that goes up to Brisbane. It looks like only wealthy superannuants will be able to travel on them now. The increases co-incided with the withdrawal of the 'backpacker' rate on the same network. Cant see HSR making it any cheaper.

 

[dajop]

What you are basically suggesting is that we get slaves to build it for us.
Whilst I can't speak for Singapore, in Dubai it is well known that it's foreign workforce is effectively slave labour, complete with extremely bad conditions. They are indentured servants as they "borrow" the money to move to Dubai, they are then unable to leave the country until their debt is paid off.

No, not like Dubai. That's exploitation with very low standards of human rights. Singapore I think is a bit better, although there is still some exploitation that goes on. If you provide clean, sanitary accommodation, don't encumber workers with debt, provide a fair wage (and to be honest, if you provide food & accommodation and $5/hour then they are probably a lot better off than many low income workers in Australia who have to pay for their own housing), and at the same time probably give them a chance to lift their families out of poverty.

What is ironic is that many people would rail against this happening inside Australia, but are happy to wear cheap Bangladeshi or Vietnamese made clothing, buying cheap Chinese made goods, flying on airlines and through airports built and maintained with importedlabour, or even holidaying in places staying at $500/night hotels that pay their staff $1/hour..... etc