General Train Discussion

[Himeno]

Indeed - just check out the exorbitant increases just announced for the Trans Australia, Ghan and whatever the train is called that goes up to Brisbane. It looks like only wealthy superannuants will be able to travel on them now. The increases co-incided with the withdrawal of the 'backpacker' rate on the same network. Cant see HSR making it any cheaper.

What were they before?
Great Southern Rail is advertising base fares for 16/17 at $929 one way for The Ghan (Adelaide - Darwin) and $939 one way for the Indian Pacific (Sydney-Perth). With premium fares starting at $2k and reaching just over $4k each way depending on season and cabin type.
Adelaide - Darwin

 

[Franky]

What were they before?
Great Southern Rail is advertising base fares for 16/17 at $929 one way for The Ghan (Adelaide - Darwin) and $939 one way for the Indian Pacific (Sydney-Perth). With premium fares starting at $2k and reaching just over $4k each way depending on season and cabin type.
Adelaide - Darwin

Not sure as I was out in the yard with a tranny. Have not yet seen anything on paper over here, and I guess there would have to be a lead in time to accommodate current bookings. But the prices you quote above sound about what was quoted as 'the old', and from memory there now will only be two classes available - sort of Y and J or even F, and vastly more expensive. Will do some looking for you.

 

[Cruiser Elite]

Oh to dream of a train service like this in Oz! My seat 1A - far back left - only 5 'Business Class' seats in this mini cabin:



Check the speed - 304kmh - Nanjing to Hongqiao in 1hr 17mins with a stop in Suzhou - UFB!

 

[Jmrocky]

No, not like Dubai. That's exploitation with very low standards of human rights. Singapore I think is a bit better, although there is still some exploitation that goes on. If you provide clean, sanitary accommodation, don't encumber workers with debt, provide a fair wage (and to be honest, if you provide food & accommodation and $5/hour then they are probably a lot better off than many low income workers in Australia who have to pay for their own housing), and at the same time probably give them a chance to lift their families out of poverty.

This happens now just not to such an extent. It's called an EMA, and has been used on a few large construction projects recently. In fact, if you're at the likes of Wheatstone, Icthys etc. there'll be everyone from Thai welding inspectors to Pakistani engineers, no doubt with a full understanding of Australian Standards and far more experience than anyone on the east coast. Just don't tell the government, there's a skills shortage remember.

 

[whatmeworry]

This happens now just not to such an extent. It's called an EMA, and has been used on a few large construction projects recently. In fact, if you're at the likes of Wheatstone, Icthys etc. there'll be everyone from Thai welding inspectors to Pakistani engineers, no doubt with a full understanding of Australian Standards and far more experience than anyone on the east coast. Just don't tell the government, there's a skills shortage remember.

Well apparently City West Water in Melbourne couldn't find electricians for the western treatment plant and got a few from the Philippines.

 

[drron]

OK, so I'm really going to confuse people and post an article for the affirmative side.

The real point of high speed rail: property development



Now before you say "but aren't you against the idea", I never actually said I was against the idea, I was against people saying "it works in Europe / Asia so it MUST be able to work here".

All the arguments which attempted to talk up the BNE-MEL corridor as being even close to the same population or total network as Europe was meaningless. But this article looks at it as a way of expanding the existing large cities out into regional area's which are really too far to be able to commute in via conventional methods.
It doesn't expect to take the place of air (which it can't, too slow and too expensive), instead it expands the usable area of a major city.

But surely there would only be a surge in land prices in regional towns if the train stopped there.Then it would become the NVFT.

But enough politics.On Sunday we are doing a different rail journey here in Japan.Going on one of JR East's Joyful trains-resort shirakami 3 from Akita to Hirosaki.Will post a couple of pics.It is definitely not high speed taking 5 hours for the trip.It is all about the train.

 

[drron]

Well here is Resort Shirakami 3 one of JR Easts joyful trains.

.

.

.

.

That is the viewing area at the end of 3 of the cars.Great leg room-

.

And a camera to show you whats ahead-

.

.

One car has compartments for groups-

.

And we pass another joyful train from Aomori to Akita.

.

 

[Himeno]

But surely there would only be a surge in land prices in regional towns if the train stopped there.Then it would become the NVFT.

If they did it right, they'd base it on the Nozomi, Hikari and Kodama Shinkansen. Same train sets, same lines, different stops. One just stops at the major stations (eg, MEL, CBR, SYD, BNE), another at other key stations (Newcastle, Wagga Wagga, Albury-Wodonga, Shepparton) and the last at all stations.

 

[Hvr]

If they did it right, they'd base it on the Nozomi, Hikari and Kodama Shinkansen. Same train sets, same lines, different stops. One just stops at the major stations (eg, MEL, CBR, SYD, BNE), another at other key stations (Newcastle, Wagga Wagga, Albury-Wodonga, Shepparton) and the last at all stations.

And three discrete groups of consumers are properly looked after as are the destinations they serve.

The problem with Australia is we won't use the knowledge of other countries in these matters.

Having travelled on Japanese trains it wonderful to see these assets being used efficiently and effectively to ensure a decent return on investment as well as providing an awesome service.

It could and should be done in Australia in stages. Start with CBR-SYD. It is a busy air route and by removing most of this traffic extra slots would be freed up at SYD that could be used elsewhere.

 

[Himeno]

Start with CBR-SYD. It is a busy air route and by removing most of this traffic extra slots would be freed up at SYD that could be used elsewhere.

As long as there was an easy, quick way to connect between the high speed rail station and the airport anyway.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

As long as there was an easy, quick way to connect between the high speed rail station and the airport anyway.

The high speed train should terminate in Central Station at the Sydney end.
As for the Canberra end, they really do need a rail link all the way in to Civic.

 

[Himeno]

The high speed train should terminate in Central Station at the Sydney end.
As for the Canberra end, they really do need a rail link all the way in to Civic.

There used to be a station near what is now Garema Place. There were bridges over Jerrabomberra Creek and the Molonglo River. A flood in the 20's washed away the bridges and they never bothered to rebuild. There are some remains of the track behind Reid CIT.

I think the current high speed rail plans call for the Canberra station to be at the airport. The airport seems easier to get to then Kingston.

 

[dajop]

Start with CBR-SYD. It is a busy air route and by removing most of this traffic extra slots would be freed up at SYD that could be used elsewhere.

What puzzles me about the whole debate is that it's an all or nothing solution. At what speed does rail become competitive with air traffic? You'd think a 2hr service on SYD-CBR (where one can be productive for most of the 2 hours if you want to be), would certainly be competitive with air traffic. That would only really need an average speed of about 170km/h, assuming 4 stops enroute, which is just faster rail - not fast rail.

 

[wandering_fred]

I wonder how much lobbying the people that own the current airport are doing to ensure that rail never connects Sydney and Canberra "properly"?
Or even Badgery Creek?

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[harvyk]

I wonder how much lobbying the people that own the current airport are doing to ensure that rail never connects Sydney and Canberra "properly"?
Or even Badgery Creek?

Happy wandering

Fred

I do believe the snows want HSR in CBR, provided that it terminates at CBR airport. They just want to be in charge of transport to / from the capital, they don't really care by what method you use.

 

[coco50]

As long as there was an easy, quick way to connect between the high speed rail station and the airport anyway.

Other problems that could impinge on HSR between SYD and CBR is that many people would want to fly from CBR to SYD to pick up a connecting flight in SYD to somewhere else.

 

[TomVexille]

Other problems that could impinge on HSR between SYD and CBR is that many people would want to fly from CBR to SYD to pick up a connecting flight in SYD to somewhere else.

Of course in that case you can again copy what already works overseas and allow the airline to essentially sell a codeshare on the HSR.

There would still be demand for air traffic, but not to the current levels.

 

[coco50]

Of course in that case you can again copy what already works overseas and allow the airline to essentially sell a codeshare on the HSR.

There would still be demand for air traffic, but not to the current levels.

They might sell a code share but what about once "on the ground" moving from a train station to an airport? In SYD could be from Central to Kingsford Smith. I'd rather be at the airport.

 

[TomVexille]

They might sell a code share but what about once "on the ground" moving from a train station to an airport? In SYD could be from Central to Kingsford Smith. I'd rather be at the airport.

You're absolutely right. There would need to be an airport stop for it to make sense.

 

[harvyk]

What puzzles me about the whole debate is that it's an all or nothing solution. At what speed does rail become competitive with air traffic? You'd think a 2hr service on SYD-CBR (where one can be productive for most of the 2 hours if you want to be), would certainly be competitive with air traffic. That would only really need an average speed of about 170km/h, assuming 4 stops enroute, which is just faster rail - not fast rail.

A reasonably priced 1 hour service (I think the current estimates put it at 64 minutes city center to city center) would make it more attractive than flying.
Right now people either fly if they want quick, or drive / bus / train if they don't care about time. A 1 hour train service could become the preferred service CBD to CBD over flying, considering that it takes around 1 hour to fly plus all the fun of airports, and getting to / from them. Provided they get the price right they could be onto a winner pax wise. The question would then become can they actually build the infrastructure required and still make a profit by selling tickets on said service.