Grammar Discussions

[whatmeworry]

Croatian has three genders (masculine, feminine and neuter) seven cases (nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, vocative, locative, instrumental) and two numbers (singular and plural). :shock:

 

[Deleted member 29185]

And yes, learning other languages does help a lot. Goethe once said : "Whoever is not acquainted with foreign languages knows nothing of his own."

He was right

I speak a little bit of Tok Pisin, but I can guarantee you it hasn't helped my English much!
Lukim yu.

 

[sergeyvzn]

I speak a little bit of Tok Pisin, but I can guarantee you it hasn't helped my English much!
Lukim yu.

Well, if you read a bit more about, like there for example:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tok_Pisin

you might learn a bit about transitive verbs ("lukim") and this will further enhance your understanding of English

There's use in everything

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Well, if you read a bit more about, like there for example:

Tok Pisin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you might learn a bit about transitive verbs ("lukim") and this will further enhance your understanding of English

There's use in everything

No doubt, but i save kros kwiktaim tumas (I'm impatient) ! Lukim yu bahain!

 

[JohnK]

It does not surprise me. English is my second language that's why I know lots more about its grammar than an average Australian who studied English at school as the approach here is to treat it as a "text" rather than break it up into grammatical bits and put them together later.

I was brought up at home by my grandparents on an old Greek dialect. Also learned Greek and went to school in Greece and I was dux before we came to Australia. In Australia I was dux in primary school in a few years. Learned French at high school at topped the class.

I am lost when I hear all this grammar talk. I must have missed English classes in High school as I do not remember learning any of this stuff at school.

Now my old Greek dialect is very poor, my Greek is poor, my French is non existent, my English is average and I am trying to learn Thai.

What hope have I got?

 

[sergeyvzn]

I was brought up at home by my grandparents on an old Greek dialect. Also learned and went to school in Greece and I was dux. Came to Australia and was dux in primary school in a few years. Learned French at school at topped the class.

I am lost when I hear all this grammar talk. I must have missed English classes in High school as I do not remember learning any of this at school.

Now my old Greek dialect is very poor, my Greek is poor, my French is non existent, my English is average and I am trying to learn Thai.

What hope have I got?

none at all

but Google translator will come to your rescue

 

[JessicaTam]

I was brought up at home by my grandparents on an old Greek dialect. Also learned Greek and went to school in Greece and I was dux before we came to Australia. In Australia I was dux in primary school in a few years. Learned French at high school at topped the class.

I am lost when I hear all this grammar talk. I must have missed English classes in High school as I do not remember learning any of this stuff at school.

Now my old Greek dialect is very poor, my Greek is poor, my French is non existent, my English is average and I am trying to learn Thai.

What hope have I got?

Better to try to speak 5 languages badly, than never bother to learn one properly.

 

[JohnK]

Better to try to speak 5 languages badly, than never bother to learn one properly.

Well how I can refuse that advice....

 

[MEL_Traveller]

It does not surprise me. English is my second language that's why I know lots more about its grammar than an average Australian who studied English at school as the approach here is to treat it as a "text" rather than break it up into grammatical bits and put them together later. If it were like it you'd know there are 4 main tense groups in the English language or "families" - Indefinite, Perfect, Continuous and Perfect Continuous. Each group has (with minor exceptions) it's own Past, Present and Future...

There are other things like Sequence of Tenses that sometimes gives birth to really interesting things like Future-in-the-Past but I'd better stop here -

I don't envy anyone trying to learn english.

I'd rather be chained to a rack and forced to watch My Kitchen Rules than have to understand all that!

 

[sergeyvzn]

I don't envy anyone trying to learn english.

I'd rather be chained to a rack and forced to watch My Kitchen Rules than have to understand all that!

English is easy grammar-wise. Phonetically it's a challenge as nothing sounds as it is written but otherwise it's simple

 

[anat0l]

English is easy grammar-wise. Phonetically it's a challenge as nothing sounds as it is written but otherwise it's simple

It's only easy grammar wise if everyone actually used the correct grammar.

Fact is, English is littered with so much "grammatical sugar" (not strictly correct but tolerated) and even if the grammar is wrong in many cases the meaning can be understood and there is little point in forcing the correction of grammar.

In other languages, getting the grammar wrong usually means little to no chance of understanding, or a more dramatic misinterpretation of meaning compared to a similar error made in English.

 

[Buzzard]

In relation to the supermarket, this is correct grammar even though it sounds funny:

Coles's philosophy

 

[sergeyvzn]

In relation to the supermarket, this is correct grammar even though it sounds funny:

Coles's philosophy

I did not know that supermarkets have become philosophers...and yes, in this case of the Possessive Case (also known as Saxon Genitive) it's an apostrophe after the "s" in a noun ending in "s" and an added "s" after the apostrophe that form the Possessive Case in its more modern form

However, there exceptions - normally classical and Biblical proper names (Jesus' teachings, Augustus' guards, i.e. more archaic cases) and common phrases that do not take the extra s (for example, "for goodness' sake) t

 

[Warks]

I did not know that supermarkets have become philosophers...and yes, in this case of the Possessive Case (also known as Saxon Genitive) it's an apostrophe after the "s" in a noun ending in "s" and an added "s" after the apostrophe that form the Possessive Case in its more modern form

However, there exceptions - normally classical and Biblical proper names (Jesus' teachings, Augustus' guards, i.e. more archaic cases) and common phrases that do not take the extra s (for example, "for goodness' sake) t

Then there's five years' service. Or one year's service.

I would write the Jones' house but I note the newspapers almost all say the Jones's house.

 

[sergeyvzn]

OK, you've asked for it!

here's a little article that will make it clear (Genitive Case - Apostrophe S in English)

Also called the possessive case, the genitive case is when we add apostrophe S (’s) to show possession, that something belongs to another or a type of relationship between things.
e.g. Woodward’s house, Your brother’s friend
The meaning of X’s Y is:
= The Y of X
= The Y belonging to X (Y is normally a thing)
= The Y which has some relation with X (Y is often a person)
The Rules:
We normally use the ’s with people, animals though it can also be used with places, organizations and companies (which suggest a group of people).
It is not common to use the ’s with non-living things.
[h=3]1. Singular nouns[/h]add 's (apostrophe S)

• My mother’s house is next to the beach. (= the house of my mother)
• Jason’s car was stolen last night. (= the car of Jason)
• Tomorrow, we’re all going to see the museum’s new art exhibit.

[h=3]2. Plural nouns ending in –s[/h]only add the apostrophe ' (without the S)

• The two sisters’ house is next to mine. (= the house of the two sisters)
• The plumbers’ tools were rusty. (= the tools of the plumbers)
• The players’ boots were dirty and smelly after the game. (= the boots of the players)

Notice that the pronunciation is the same for certain possessives:

• My friend’s house = the house of my friend = 1 friend
• My friends’ house = the house of my friends = 2 or more friends

You can usually distinguish whether the speaker is referring to one or two friends by listening to the context of what the speaker says.
[h=3]3. Plural nouns not ending in –s:[/h]add 's

• Be careful not to trip over the children’s toys. (= the toys of the children)
• The women’s bathroom is currently flooded with water.
• The presidential candidate is often called the people’s favorite politician.

[h=3]4. Singular noun ending in –s:[/h]It depends…
a. Most names: add 's (apostrophe S)

• They had a really good time at James’s barbecue last Friday.
• We spent the day admiring Frances’s new car.

b. Classical or religious names: add ' (only the apostrophe)

• Jesus’ disciples carried out the teachings of Jesus.
• Sophocles’ plays are still performed today.

[h=3]5. Possessive nouns as part of a phrase[/h]Sometimes more than one word/noun is a possessive. The same rules as above are still valid:

• The King of Sparta’s wife was called Helen.
• The President of Chile’s speech was very long.
• I accidentally took someone else’s bag home by mistake.
• I had to give my boss three weeks’ notice that I was leaving the company.

If there are two owners of something, we add 's to the final name:

• Rick and Steve’s car is quite old.

But, if each person owns a car, then add 's to both names:

• Rick’s and Steve’s cars are quite old.

Notice how the verb is in plural form.
[h=3]6. No Noun[/h]If the meaning is clear, we can use the possessive without a noun after it.

• Her hair is longer than Jill’s. (= Jill’s hair)
• We ate at Billy’s last night. (= Billy’s Diner or Billy’s house)
• Whose bag is this? It’s Jane’s. (= Jane’s bag)

 

[Warks]

Okay how about "Jimmy got 2 As, 3 Bs and 2 Cs." Doesn't look right without apostrophes does it? But then what sort of apostrophe is it?

 

[sergeyvzn]

Okay how about "Jimmy got 2 As, 3 Bs and 2 Cs." Doesn't look right without apostrophes does it? But then what sort of apostrophe is it?

Yes, it looks absolutely fine without apostrophes. These are nouns in plural. No apostrophes. It's got nothing to do with the possessive case discussed.

Compare: Jimmy got 2 apples, 3 bananas and 2 clams (nouns in plural, we are not talking about who the fruits belong to hence there is no possessive)

vs

Jimmy got 2 of Jill's apples, 3 of King of Sparta's bananas and 2 of Jesus' clams (all the words after "of" are in the possessive case and indicate who the fruits belong to hence the possessive)

 

[Warks]

People get a bit worked up as they see As as as. Try saying that after a few drinks.

But people write 60's and 70's (I don't) and also 6's and 7's. Of course that should be written out in full by rights.

 

[anat0l]

Despite style guides out there, the general rule that seems to get taught and is used is that it is 's for most situations and only the apostrophe when the noun ends in s (or other sibilant character).

This is quite general and technically incorrect. The other exception seems to be the plural form of single letters (e.g. Mind your p's and q's) unless they are capitals, and even then the latter is disputed (e.g. She got straight As on her report or She got straight A's on her report).

I tend to see apostrophes used for the plural form of abbreviations, e.g. Herman has a collection of 50 CD's (compact discs), which I think is not right.

Having something like Xerxes's sword (i.e. the sword belonging to Xerxes) is not glaringly incorrect but some view it as clumsy. I don't see anything wrong with it, but to conform with the style used by most people, I would probably write Xerxes' sword, or Octavius' army.

 

[sergeyvzn]

'S to indicate plural is incorrect. This is my purist view that is supported by many linguists. It is widely used though and it is due to the fact that punctuation rules were never taught properly to those newspaper editors that like using A's (meaning several As) and in the 70's (meaning in the years 1970s). It might look better for their trained eye but would cause a few nasty cain strokes in an expensive British public school.

I think we are going too deep here, these intricacies are way too complex for an FF geeks forum even if we've all been enjoying the discussion immensely-