Heads up about program changes

[zainman]

Deliberately trying annoy people and/or lose money?

Won't be the first (or last time)..

 

[Newk]

Apologies, I'd did indeed miss that bit. I didn't deliberately edit it out though! That's the crux of the issue though. The cost of MASAs to QF is not simply (or even primarily) the seat you occupy on the plane - but numerous people on this thread are talking like it is. The issue for them is as Red Roo explained at the start - people are getting a short cut to status (which costs QF money) without giving them sufficient revenue in return. That is a perfectly plausible and logical explanation IMHO.

Clearly lots of people think that QF is wrong (and/or lying about the reason for this change). The fact is though, I don't think any of them are in a position to know whether MASAs were profitable or not, whereas QF is in a position to know that. Additionally, if indeed MASAs were profitable for QF, what do you think the real reason is for getting rid of them? Deliberately trying annoy people and/or lose money?

Jack, good on you.
I think we agree then
That said the changes to the rest of the stuff including the tables referred to in other posts do raise some small doubts about how much they have a handle on everything

 

[Jack_OC]

probably without realising it you are making EXACTLY the point. We have no idea how QFF values status.....although if someone can be bothered a possible start is to cost the difference between a classic award and a full points ASA as currently available online.
The point that some of us make is that if QFF has a value on status build it into the MASA copayment. But I am happy to again admit that I have no knowledge of these things and my opinion is only informed by my custom of QF and my use of QFF

We know what value QF places on QP membership. We also know that WP status has to be worth a helluva lot more than that. So you'd be talking about a fairly hefty copayment I think, if it was intended to reflect the difference between getting status or not (and AFAIK, that's the only reason anyone ever booked MASAs). Hence I am guessing they decided MASAs are just not economically viable.

 

[RSD]

Qantas has been on the path to become a mere travel agent for EK on international routes. I wouldn't be surprised if Qantas stop their international routes altogether, or reduce them to mainly a ceremonial symbol.

I suspect that it won't be long before it's just QF1 to London + the U.S. routes (last I heard they were making money on the U.S. routes still).

 

[ketsuzei]

So should we channel a bit of AC/DC for the final MASA some time in June 2015?

"I'm on a short cut to status..."

 

[Hvr]

I suspect that it won't be long before it's just QF1 to London + the U.S. routes (last I heard they were making money on the U.S. routes still).

And what about NZ?

 

[legroom]

Count me in with you on that. In the same boat (as in need the appropriate credits - but our tickets are CX on CX stock), and have taken a copy of that FAQ. I don't think they can back away from that now, although I am fully expecting to have to email in a copy of the e-ticket after the event, with a request for the 'Original Scheme Credits' (a new take on Original Routing Credits - for real fun, end up with an involuntary re-route, and see what happens trying to claim both....)

One can 'assume' existing bookings apply to both QF & OW flights.

However, quite early in the thread I did invite Red Roo to clarify this issue and as of today (yes, effective as of last Friday 5pm), no clarification was offered.

The screen grab from QF's AA page clearly showed there is NO distinction for existing bookings, only 'for travel after July 1st'.

I do not read QF's mind, only what is in print.

 

[dunedin]

This "enhancement" has really annoyed me. I hate that you brand it as an enhancement, and fill it with so much sugar coated rubbish - some honesty would have been good with your Gold and Platinum members. I read this and sure you made a couple of enhancements but its mostly further deterioration of the program, which we constantly see - you never release changes where there are ONLY positive 'enhancements' to the program. As a Platinum Frequent flyer i don't care about how there are so many ways to redeem my points which is how you end the email - I only want to redeem points on decent flights - as most other Gold/Platinum Frequent flyers. Two years ago I only had Qantas Credit Cards and only flew Qantas - I had complete 100% loyalty to you. But after some negative changes i decided to give Virgin a go and I flew VA business to LA Feb last year and really enjoyed it, was very happy with the service onboard VA, even though I love the Qantas lounges more, so I got a VA credit card - then after program changes last year, and making it hard to get MASA's by taking them off the website (again feeding us rubbish that it couldnt be done at the time - i like honesty more than lies/sugar coating...) Late last year decided to compare Qantas versus Virgin for business class reward seats (I'm Platinum with VA now as well) - Virgin had so many more seats available at pretty minimal taxes that I seriously wondered what Qantas was taking me for. My spend on credit cards is now 70% Virgin and 30% Qantas but my travel is roughly 50/50 both and after this announcement i am so happy that I've made the decision last year to spread my points because it just makes me wonder when the next enhancement will come where the program further degrades. RedRoo - Qantas management need to fix the legacy problems, get costs in the business reduced so that you can sell more competitive fares so that Qantas can have more bums in seats, and then maybe, that's when you should look at degrading the program, not when airfares are consistently higher as they are at the moment, Qantas just doesn't have tack for when it announces changes like this and it should not have come at this time. Qantas is just doing a damn fine job of pushing its loyal customers to look elsewhere.

 

[Jack_OC]

This "enhancement" has really annoyed me. I hate that you brand it as an enhancement, and fill it with so much sugar coated rubbish - some honesty would have been good with your Gold and Platinum members.

To be fair, I don't think Qantas used the term "enhancement" to describe these changes, at least not in the emails I received, or on the website, as far as I can tell. They were also up front about the fact that some of the changes will affect some people negatively - in particular Red Roo's post at the start of this thread.

 

[straitman]

We know what value QF places on QP membership. We also know that WP status has to be worth a helluva lot more than that. So you'd be talking about a fairly hefty copayment I think, if it was intended to reflect the difference between getting status or not (and AFAIK, that's the only reason anyone ever booked MASAs). Hence I am guessing they decided MASAs are just not economically viable.

Jack3193,
In your opinion what should the cost difference be between a 'classic' and 'MASA':?:
Artificial figures only but if if I spend 150,000 points on a 'classic' award plus the copayment and then an extra $800 to upgrade to a 'MASA' is that enough:?:
In doing this I earn 20,000 points and 220 SC.
If the $800 is not enough then what is enough:?: ie where is the cutoff that makes this viable:?: When answering bear in mind here that I am already using the 'J' or 'F' lounge due to the ticket type.

 

[marki]

This "enhancement" has really annoyed me. I hate that you brand it as an enhancement, and fill it with so much sugar coated rubbish - some honesty would have been good with your Gold and Platinum members. I read this and sure you made a couple of enhancements but its mostly further deterioration of the program, which we constantly see - you never release changes where there are ONLY positive 'enhancements' to the program. As a Platinum Frequent flyer i don't care about how there are so many ways to redeem my points which is how you end the email - I only want to redeem points on decent flights - as most other Gold/Platinum Frequent flyers. Two years ago I only had Qantas Credit Cards and only flew Qantas - I had complete 100% loyalty to you. But after some negative changes i decided to give Virgin a go and I flew VA business to LA Feb last year and really enjoyed it, was very happy with the service onboard VA, even though I love the Qantas lounges more, so I got a VA credit card - then after program changes last year, and making it hard to get MASA's by taking them off the website (again feeding us rubbish that it couldnt be done at the time - i like honesty more than lies/sugar coating...) Late last year decided to compare Qantas versus Virgin for business class reward seats (I'm Platinum with VA now as well) - Virgin had so many more seats available at pretty minimal taxes that I seriously wondered what Qantas was taking me for. My spend on credit cards is now 70% Virgin and 30% Qantas but my travel is roughly 50/50 both and after this announcement i am so happy that I've made the decision last year to spread my points because it just makes me wonder when the next enhancement will come where the program further degrades. RedRoo - Qantas management need to fix the legacy problems, get costs in the business reduced so that you can sell more competitive fares so that Qantas can have more bums in seats, and then maybe, that's when you should look at degrading the program, not when airfares are consistently higher as they are at the moment, Qantas just doesn't have tack for when it announces changes like this and it should not have come at this time. Qantas is just doing a damn fine job of pushing its loyal customers to look elsewhere.

Cannot agree more Dunedin cannot agree more. It's called status bashing although jack3193 is right the enhancement term may have not been used. Is QF learning ?

 

[Pooch]

Well I've decided to put my money where my mouth is! Heading off to the US in June with VA/DL - J ticket saving close to $2,500 over QF ... 2015 will be the end of WP for me ... now to burn those 300K+ points before they're totally valueless!

 

[JohnM]

Now the FAQs re the new system say this-

Nothing about QF or partner airlines being different.Yet it has been implied that that might not be for partner airlines.However I have now put it on public record so if less SCs than planned Consumer affairs will be involved.Now that is FAIR.

That FAQ seems quite clear that existing ticketed bookings for flights (on QF & OW) after 1 July will earn according to what applied at the time of booking. I will certainly be watching my Sept-Oct DONE5 results carefully.

I inferred that the comment about crediting 4 weeks after the date(s) of the flights was because the automated system would be set to send these off for manual handling - much like what happens if you need to send in BPs for flights that may have missed being credited. That would create a flurry of manual work initially but it will decline to zero 353 days from 28 March 2014.

 

[drron]

So I have now looked at next years DONE4-still in planning as it doesn't start unti May 15.
Under present scheme it would deliver mrsdrron 1120 SCs.Once again would be a QF ticket.
Under the new scheme it will be 960-1000 SCs.
Why the difference?Because 1 leg will be HEL-BKK.So the earning for this if it comes under all other partner flights will be 120 SCs(4916 miles).However there is another entry which has UK/Europe to China,Hong Kong,Malaysia,Japan,Singapore and Sri Lanka which is only 80 SCs in business.No mention of Thailand.But why this difference anyway?Fly LHR-SIN gets you 80SCs but the same number of miles (6765) on another partner flight not mentioned would be 160 SCs.
What a botched job.Surely they could have made sure that they worked out these changes and got rid of the errors and ambiguities before releasing the details even if it meant delaying the introduction of these changes.
A massive fail.

 

[equus]

One can 'assume' existing bookings apply to both QF & OW flights.

However, quite early in the thread I did invite Red Roo to clarify this issue and as of today (yes, effective as of last Friday 5pm), no clarification was offered.

The screen grab from QF's AA page clearly showed there is NO distinction for existing bookings, only 'for travel after July 1st'.

I do not read QF's mind, only what is in print.

I think you are reading way to much into that page. I don't think you would dispute that QF bookings ticketed prior to March 29 for travel after July 1 will earn at the old rate, but if you look at the QF "Changes to Earn" page at Frequent Flyer - Fairer Flying you will find only:

Qantas and Jetstar Airlines
For travel on or from 1 July 2014, we're changing the way you earn ....

No references to "except if you booked prior to 29 March".

All the pages are generic, and refer to "Travel after 1 July". The exception, for tickets booked prior to 29 March is handled under the FAQ.

Whilst I agree it would be good for a confirmation from RedRoo, I am not too worried - it says what it does, and all RedRoo can do is confirm that, or change it again - for the worse. Given the risk, I am happy enough to take what is clearly written - which has no exclusions, and rely on it (and be prepared to fight after the event). I have taken a capture to PDF to preserve - and this thread also provides ample documentation.

For what it is worth, I expect QF to simply award according to the new scheme, and then manually credit those who bother to chase up and query. No lose situation for them - those that don't know or care get shafted, but never realise, those of us that do follow up are used to "4 weeks" becoming 8 or 10, but eventually end up pacified.

 

[dunedin]

jack3193/marki - yes sorry i correct myself there - "It's all about creating a fairer, more simplified program" - nothing about it is simple - the Qantas website explaining the changes is huge and the email was just so sugar coated when they could have been a little more honest but the issue I feel here is timing as always. They should be fixing their legacy issues and cost base before making the yearly attack on their frequent flyers.

 

[Deleted User]

I've contemplated these changes for a few days. When I started weekly flights in 2011, I compared QF and VA - QF won hands down. Though VA have narrowed the gap, I still prefer QF.

My problem is I now fly a lot less - but am self-funding 8 return trips in Y to Europe (3 are mine) and 5 return trips to NZ (1 mine) + another 10 or so (2 mine) east coast domestic flights, between now and the end of the year. So circa $20K of flights, most of which would accrue to QF.

I was happy to top up my base earn with JASAs to retain status. Now I'll struggle to keep SG - particularly if I burn points on a classic award or two to the UK. On VA I'd be Platinum + partner gold with family pooling.

So what choice do I have? VA WP here I come....

In practice, I'll requalify WP using MASAs and the current spend will stay with QF (some of it is already spent, the balance is quite committed). But 2014 will be my last year of self funded QF travel, which is a shame.

MASAs helped negate Family Pooling. With MASAs gone, Family Pooling makes VA the obvious choice for family travel. Sorry QF.

Yes, I'm thinking the same... Stay with QF while I have status, slowly work up the status ladder with VA & family Pooling... 4 pax pooling to me should speed things up nicely ;-)

 

[amaroo]

Interesting. The 100 segment rule actually means AA could make a lot of sense for a very frequent dom flyer, but only if they can get the 4 eligible sectors on AA etc. Eg if someone did 48 MEL-SYD Red edeal rtns plus 4 short AA sectors they would get to OWE with AA, but not even close with QFF.

Those 4 AA flights would be a PITA - expensive, time consuming and restrictive to undertake every year! Flying QF over to wherever to sit on an AA bird would probably push you over the line. Add a few MEL-BNE/ADL/PER in the mix and you're over the line.

The 4 qualifying flights for QF are a common complaint for AFF members living abroad. There is also the reduction in point earning when crediting discount fares to AA.

not sure AA necessarily makes sense for someone who flies mainly with OW partners. I think it really depends on where you're flying and in what class. For example, if you take MEL-HKG-LHR in business as an example, 3 rtns would leave you just short of OWE with either program, while 3.5 rtns would get you there with either. But getting the eligible sectors would be easier for most people with QF. If you're flying in F, QFF is almost always going to be better. But in Y, AA wins easily.

If you prefer to fly J or above on other OW airlines and like to travel through SIN/BKK/HKG on your way to Europe - it's a no brainer.

 

[Jack_OC]

Jack3193,
In your opinion what should the cost difference be between a 'classic' and 'MASA':?:
Artificial figures only but if if I spend 150,000 points on a 'classic' award plus the copayment and then an extra $800 to upgrade to a 'MASA' is that enough:?:
In doing this I earn 20,000 points and 220 SC. If the $800 is not enough then what is enough:?: ie where is the cutoff that makes this viable:?:

I don't know what co payment would be enough to make it profitable for QF. As I said before though, QF is in a position to know that, and has concluded the whole concept is just not economically viable. In other words, my guess is that the copayments people were paying weren't even close to being enough.

When answering bear in mind here that I am already using the 'J' or 'F' lounge due to the ticket type

The issue is not the lounge access before your MASA flights, or even the flights themselves. The costs QF are worried about are the costs resulting from your MASA-enabled status over the next 1-2 years.

 

[Archphoto]

All changed in August last year - Published in June:

http://www.australianfrequentflyer....aadvantage/change-aa-earn-qf-codes-51375.html

I have *always* found it so hard to determine which code QF uses for their flights (CX booking engine shows clearly which one you're looking at booking). Telling me that "This flight is determined "Discount Economy" when earning points and SCs." is not ultra helpful - am I in L,M,N,O,P,Q,R or U,V,W,X,Y,Z???

With their "Simplified" earning table etc, I'm even more confused, so will readily admit, I'm a little loath (at this point) to use my AA or CX FF number, simply because I could end up booking a code that won't earn me points or SCs.