Hydroxychloroquine - What Goes On?

Renato1

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I like watching Fox News.

Last Monday, on his radio show, Hannity interviewed a Doctor in a New York hotspot. Doctor said, he treated 350 patients of his and 150 in another area with hydroxychloroquine, antibiotics and zinc sulfate . At that time, he had had none going to hospital and none dead.

Next day Hannity had another New York doctor on who was also treating his patients with hydroxychloroquine - he was more coy about citing facts and figures, but said his results from using the anti-malaria drug on patients were positive.

On Saturday, Tucker Carlson had another doctor on describing the nightmare in New York hospitals. The Doctor then stated that he was using the anti-malaria drug as a prophylactic.

And New York Governor Cuomo was procuring 750,000 doses of the malaria drug chloroquine; 70,000 doses of its derivative, hydroxychloroquine; and 10,000 doses of the antibiotic Zithromax.

After President Trump expressed optimism over the results that French doctors had gotten with the drugs, and he had ordered the FDA to fast track testing of hydroxychloroquine, the Governors of Nevada and Michigan then passed orders preventing their doctors from using hydroxychloroquine on their patients,

These reports sort of raised a lot of questions to me like -
Would it not be a simple statistical test to see if, on contracting the virus, the population of people currently taking the drug for Lupus and arthritis have a significantly lower hospitalisation and death rate than the general population?

Would it not be a simple statistical test to compare the hundreds already treated with the drugs after contracting the virus, to an equivalent number of people who contracted the virus a few weeks prior who weren't treated?

What's up with those State Governors banning its use? and

Is the drug useless, or are New Yorkers and people here and in other countries now dying needlessly?

Then, on The Bolt Report tonight, he reported that New York health workers are now on the anti-malaria drug.
And that France and Italy now allows it to be used in some cases.
And that our health workers will be starting a trial in three weeks.

So, is this some kind of Right Wing Conspiracy in presenting the information above?
Or, does a partial cure fo rthe epidemic exist, but it doesn't work for the public ......but it is good for health workers? (Kind of reminds me of our Face Mask discussion)

Any thoughts?
Regards,
Renato
 
Am I missing something here (as is entirely likely)? Until I started reading the sort of stuff mentioned upthread, most of what I recall reading and hearing about Chloroquine was its potential for use as treatment, in combination with other drug treatments. I am sure I've read various references that by itself it is likely not an effective treatment, based on studies done in China, but it might be effective as part of an overall treatment alongside other pharmaceuticals (which is actually what DJT indicated initially as well). I guess the idea of combination of different drugs is to complex for simple media stories ....
I think there have been mentions of just the solo drug. On a Lupus FB page I'm on, one of the young women tested positive over a week ago. She's in NSW. She has kidney failure through Lupus and is on plaquenil. She had a fever for a day, slight cold, but reports now that she is much better other than having lost a sense of taste and smell which is now being reported as a symptom in young people. Maybe it was the plaquenil that got her through it. Normally infections wreck havoc on Lupies but not this person. Anecdotal I know. We don't have much else here yet.
 
There is very large body of research on quinine
Unezpected reactions occur with many substances but this does not render them useless.
Quinine may be about to save a lot if lives
 
Wikipedia has all the information if you click on the links. I asked the weeks ago if the heath authorities ran a few reports - silence, as is not reporting if they are going to use the French coughtail. Poland is full production mode, Supercomputer models have thrown up a Japanese drug - and it works in vitro. About 9/10 dont work, but 10% is better than nothing.

I think our slimeball politicians are thinking 'How can we give ths out without causing a panic'. For about 20% of the population - that option is not for them.
Self sufficiency and actually making the stuff in Australia - is still in the too hard basket.
 
So, is this some kind of Right Wing Conspiracy in presenting the information above?
Or, does a partial cure fo rthe epidemic exist, but it doesn't work for the public ......but it is good for health workers? (Kind of reminds me of our Face Mask discussion)
no conspiracy and nothing new.

Researchers at UQ CCR (University of Queensland Centre for Clinical Research) have recently been interveiwed by the media on the effects of using malaria and HIV (?) drugs on those with Covid-19 with some effect in trials. Google will easily fund this in the news, circa 2 weeks ago.

From memory its been long understood that the malaria drug does help various Corona virus suffering, but obviously trials are still ongoing, and any Doctor prescribing these medicines to any patient outside of controlled testing is a crank and any reported numbers should be completely disregarded.
 
Not if the drugs make them have a heart attack instead of treating the infection which is a possibility given the known risk profile of the drug.

Not disagreeing. But an 80 year old being denied a ventilator and will certainly die, or can trial the drug which has been around for decades that *might* give a heart attack? I think the preferred option is pretty clear.

These drugs may be experimental for the treatment of Covid-19. But at the moment the news is pretty grim for the elderly, and pretty depressing on their mental health. Any drug that might ease that mental stress is a positive, IMO.
 
On reading your post I went to google and typed in 'Governors of Nevada and Michigan ban hydroxychoroquine'. Two seconds.

Here's the answer - the bold bits are important:

The Michigan Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs issued an order Wednesday warning physicians against writing prescriptions “without a legitimate medical purpose” and instructing pharmacists to evaluate the “legitimacy” of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine prescriptions.​
The department cited concerns about stockpiling amid “multiple allegations” of doctors writing prescriptions for family and friends, adding that reports of such conduct “may be further investigated for administrative action” and that other health professionals are required to report “inappropriate prescribing practices.”​

You're watching Fox and other right-leaning programs for your information - ie - pro-Republican.

A google search for 'Governor of Nevada' and 'Governor of Michigan' and guess what... they're both Democrats.

Is it a right-wing conspiracy? I dunno if you'd call it that. But it certainly sounds like politics.
Oh - I'd seen those things. The other part was their concern about the drugs being not being available for people with current genuine need of the drugs.

Which was fair enough for the tiny percentage of people with Lupus, but it seems to me that the larger group using the drugs for arthritis wouldn't really have priority over those facing death from the virus. and could be put on painkillers instead.

Note well though - the two Governors banned the use of drugs which showed promise at saving lives, and apparently that is not a legitimate purpose to the mind of one Governor
Regards,
Renato


My only thought is you should stop watching Fox News. It doesn't make you clever, or more informed, or more likely to see through the conspiracy. It just gives you misinformation.
Please specify the misinformation you allege?
Else you are just engaged in making unsupported defamatory assertions.
Regards,
Renato
 
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Not disagreeing. But an 80 year old being denied a ventilator and will certainly die, or can trial the drug which has been around for decades that *might* give a heart attack? I think the preferred option is pretty clear.

These drugs may be experimental for the treatment of Covid-19. But at the moment the news is pretty grim for the elderly, and pretty depressing on their mental health. Any drug that might ease that mental stress is a positive, IMO.

Unfortunately if an 80 year old was that bad with covid-19 to be put on a ventilator, then they will most probably not survive. T
 
Oh - I'd seen those things. The other part was their concern about the drugs being not being available for people with current genuine need of the drugs.

Which was fair enough for the tiny percentage of people with Lupus, but it seems to me that the larger group using the drugs for arthritis wouldn't really have priority over those facing death from the virus. and could be put on painkillers instead.

Note well though - the two Governors banned the use of drugs which showed promise at saving lives, and apparently that is not a legitimate purpose to the mind of one Governor
Regards,
Renato

With a degree of respect Renato you should not comment about medical conditions which clearly you have no true knowledge of. Arthritis is not the main issue with most sufferers. Try renal failure, random DVT's that cause strokes and heart attacks, organ failure.....
Just for starters

  • Central Nervous system (brain and spinal cord)
  • Ophthalmologic system (eyes)
  • Oral system (mouth)
  • Dermatologic system (skin)
  • Cardiopulmonary system (heart and lungs)
  • Renal system (kidney)
  • Gastrointestinal system (digestive)
  • Reproductive system
  • Hematologic system (blood)
  • Musculoskeletal system (muscles, joints and bones)
Pain killers? Give me a break. They do more damage than help in lupus patients.

I thought your beach thread was rather quaint and a little funny. But now you are dealing with significant medical issues and maybe just leave it alone now.
 
There are many examples of promising drugs whose initial appeal proved disappointing. An example is torcetrapib.This drug appeared to cure coronary artery disease in rabbits who were fed a high cholesterol diet. It raised HDL ("good") cholesterol so in theory there was a reason why it should have been effective in humans. Pfizer (one of those nasty multinational drug companies) spent several hundred millions of US dollars in research and development, only to find that in human trials it provoked an unexpected side effect - hypertension. The drug never made it to market. This took several years of careful scientific research to establish. Several other companies have tested similar compounds and none work, unfortunately.
Another example is Vioxx. This drug was the first of the selective Cox-2 inhibitors (non steroi_al anti inflammatory drugs). I remember Michael Wooldridge (the then federal minister for health) telling the House of Representatives that the drug was so promising that it was being fast tracked onto the PBS. It was marketed as the first anti-inflammatory to have no side effects. Fast forward several years to when its manufacturer had to pay out 830 million USD to settle a class action after the drug was linked to heart attacks.
The bottom line is that jumping in early to distribute a purported cure may end up in even more tears than we have at present.
This drug has been around since 1955.
Regards,
Renato
 
Thalidomide is another example.
An interesting history.Produced first in Germany where testing for teratogenic side effects were not required to be done.
Licensed around the world except for the USA where the firm approached by the Germans,SKF, did their own studies and refused to market it.The Germans then approached another firm but the FDA knocked back 6 applications for it to be marketed in the USA.

Now it is backed and used to treat Myeloma and some other rarer conditions.

Now interestingly the FDA has given approval for hydroxychloroquine for use in COVID 19 patients for testing and compassionate use.Now hydroxychloroquine is not a new drug.First synthesised in 1945 and used in Malaria.In the 1960s it first began to be trialled in SLE.Also can be used for Q fever.
So we have a lot of knowledge of it's use in humans.This is no thalidomide.We know the side effects and how to monitor for them.In fact I first used hydroxychloroquine myself in 1969.
So to the FDA-

It's also approved the trialling of other drugs for Covid.
 
Whatever thing works, or appears to work, or is just a total stab in the dark - should be given to people who are on the frontline saving lives.

The rest of us should just stay at home and not watch to much of Fox or for that matter the ABC... try flicking the channel and get a range of views.

A bird needs a left wing and a right wing, it’s pretty much useless with only one!
No, I don't need to hear that Trump is the most evil, terrible person on the planet for what he said about hydroxychoroquine, not to mention causing deaths in the USA and Africa, while Governor Cuomo is the best, most fantastic person in the USA - for saying pretty much the same thing about hydroxychoroquine.
Cheers,
Renato
 
No, I don't need to hear that Trump is the most evil, terrible person on the planet for what he said about hydroxychoroquine, not to mention causing deaths in the USA and Africa, while Governor Cuomo is the best, most fantastic person in the USA - for saying pretty much the same thing about hydroxychoroquine.
Cheers,
Renato
No, you only hear what you want to hear and dismiss everything showing that to be flawed, even twisting what has been said into things that were not said so that they will fit your ideas.

Trump said that the drugs in question did do what he claimed and were already approved by the FDA for said uses. Which the FDA promptly said they were not.
Trump's claims directly lead to people using said drugs for the uses that Trump suggested, uses not approved for by the FDA.
This directly lead to deaths.

Meanwhile, Governor Cuomo got a stockpile of said drugs to enable NY state to run an approved, controlled trial of said drugs for this proposed use.

Completely different things, and you are twisting them to present Trump's "facts" as realty and anything else as fake.

You really need to stop getting your information from Fox News Entertainment.
 
Not exactly a controlled test
The spread of the virus is random and testing is random as well (not everyone being tested)
Statistics compares populations, either using random samples or the entire population.
So the first Doctor mentioned has an entire population of size 500, which was treated with hydroxychoroquine.
It should be extremely simple to find another Doctor in the area who has treated an equivalent number of patients without it - and compare the results.

A sample size of 500 is a very sizeable sample size, given that the Normal Distribution starts working properly with a sample size of 31.
Regards,
Renato
Post automatically merged:

I lost interest after that first quote.
Short attention span.
Happens to some.
Regards,
Renato
 
Statistics compares populations, either using random samples or the entire population.
So the first Doctor mentioned has an entire population of size 500, which was treated with hydroxychoroquine.
It should be extremely simple to find another Doctor in the area who has treated an equivalent number of patients without it - and compare the results.

A sample size of 500 is a very sizeable sample size, given that the Normal Distribution starts working properly with a sample size of 31.
Regards,
Renato

To be statistically valid, you would have to control for other variables a well. Say the first doctor has a population that is 90% made up of African Americans, The other with a 90% of the population of hispanics. The drug administered to the first population is shown to work. Is it the effect of the drug or the genetics of the patient?
 
How do you get a control group among healthy people to match people who have the other conditions (lupus or whatever) for which they're taking this drug?

How do you know the general population rates when we don't even know the exact number of people infected? Your statistical studies might give useful information, in a few years once we have all the data.

Edit: I don't watch fox, can we do a statistical review of correlation between watching fox news and being able to critically evaluate proposed health studies?
It is simple - compare the first Doctor mentioned who has an entire population of size 500, which was treated with hydroxychoroquine, to that of another Doctor in the same area with similar type patients who has treated an equivalent number of patients without it - and compare the results.

Look for anything in the two populations that may skew the results and make the populations atypical (e.g. comparing affluent patients with one doctor to low socio-economic types with the other)
Regards,
Renato
 
No, you only hear what you want to hear and dismiss everything showing that to be flawed, even twisting what has been said into things that were not said so that they will fit your ideas.

Trump said that the drugs in question did do what he claimed and were already approved by the FDA for said uses. Which the FDA promptly said they were not.
Trump's claims directly lead to people using said drugs for the uses that Trump suggested, uses not approved for by the FDA.
This directly lead to deaths.

Meanwhile, Governor Cuomo got a stockpile of said drugs to enable NY state to run an approved, controlled trial of said drugs for this proposed use.
No Trump did not say they cured Covid.He said he wanted them to be used now.The FDA approved the use for Covid for trials and Compassionate use on 19/3.
Also one person died after drinking fish tank cleaner which contains Quinine.Trump said nothing about Quinine.So he did not cause deaths.
Trump has also built a stockpile of Hydroxychloroquine-2 drug companies have donated 50 million tablets.

You also hear what you want to hear and take the things stated in the MSM as fact when they definitely are not always so.
 
My wife is getting annoyed with me being here too long as there are a few jobs i said I'd do.

US FDA just gave emergency-use authorization to hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for the coronavirus pandemic .


Cheers,
Renato
 
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