I wonder had JASA's continued ...

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Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

oh, do correct me then.....

What you posted is your opinion and that's all fine, but that's all it is. You're not the messenger for anyone other than yourself. If you actually did have a legitimate message directly from QF and you were just passing on the information, then yes, we may be inclined to "shoot the messenger" if the information wasn't to our liking, but in this case, all you're doing is expressing your opinion, or in your own words, what you reckon.
 
Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

What you posted is your opinion and that's all fine, but that's all it is. You're not the messenger for anyone other than yourself. If you actually did have a legitimate message directly from QF and you were just passing on the information, then yes, we may be inclined to "shoot the messenger" if the information wasn't to our liking, but in this case, all you're doing is expressing your opinion, or in your own words, what you reckon.


Ah, thank you. I see your point :)

yes indeed. well I don't want to be "shot" for my opinion :D

thanks (sincerely)
 
Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

And I strongly believe somd AFF'ers place way too much value on the "cheap" points they are earning. Get the points for nothing and then expect everything out of it. Flooding the market only hurts people with points balances or those earnt by flying.

If it's anyone flooding the market with "cheap" points, it's Qantas.
 
Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

If it's anyone flooding the market with "cheap" points, it's Qantas.

They probably feel comfortable doing so now that they've removed the best-value way of using them. Which is fair enough.
 
Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

To continue with another viewpoint on the discussion of JohnK and RichardMEL:

I look at it this way, QF has been reasonably nice to me. OTOH I've flown a fair number of their flights over the last 10-15 years. Way back when, I took a serious look at the QFF program (before my one and only DONEx) and said the earnings don't match my flying and the benefits are less than ideal. So I have credited most of those QF flights to another program. The recent crediting changes make domestic QF more valuable in the QF program, so there was some incentive to add enough external flights to get lounge access for last year's trip to the states. This was done on a earlier trip to the states where the Q/N/S class normal fares which I needed anyway were replaced with P class and credited to QF. Fiddle? Well it was/is in the rules. Have I used (abused) the full extent of the rules (as mentioned earlier)? No, but I have read the rules. Is it an urban myth, that if you don't know the rules you shouldn't be playing the game? Should the rule maker complain when the rules are read?

A mention of cheaper award flights (xASAs) from NZ was mentioned. Yes, buying QFi flights outside of Australia has been my agenda for many years. And with my more limited flying ATM, even overseas QFi flights (which credit to any FF of choice) are no longer the cheapest. Do I have sympathy with QF? Not unless they start to price flights worldwide in AU$ (ie at the same level everywhere). QF seems to have learned to live with the differential (source) pricing model. With that they can't blame their (perhaps dwindling repeat) customer base from taking advantage of it.

The AFF (and FT) crowd are typically more educated and certainly more travel savvy than most. (To quote earlier posters in various QF marketing oriented threads) when the "work-study kids" produce policies (or implementations) to "improve things" for QF (market share, profits, customer acceptance) and management buys into those policies without considering possible "un-intended consequences", decisions are made as a result of which the intelliegent (money-conscious?) people will search for and find the "loopholes".

Do I begrudge the changes QF has implemented in the last couple of years? No, but I have responded to them. As apparently have quite a number of formerly loyal and regular fliers using QF flights. So perhaps QF (and QFF) have lost a large portion of their customers who actually LIKE to fly. Along with some who HAVE to fly. These are their repeat customers. If they wish to change the outcome, they will need to consider if the changes will work as well as be profitable.

But why does QFF need to exist? I wonder what percentage of people would take up QF flights if the cost of points (@$0.007 per) and SC (say $1 per) were optional on domestic flights. Or roughly $30 off my infrequent PER-MEL flight? More than QF would like (given point breakage and the online mall) I would guess. And would likely make JQ superfluous.

What would change my image/response to QF/QFF? Better quality control on web site implementation? Better understanding that an airline is a network (not just SYD/MEL)? Acknowledge that the EK agreement has limitations on QF expansion? Better (and more transparent) opportunities for international flight upgrades? Offering additional award seats (ie unsold to $$ revenue) to QFF status members only at the T-24/36/48 time mark? Acknowledging prior statements when changing them?
Fewer customer service fails being reported for high status QFF members? More transparency? Better parity with alternate programs? There have been multiple threads on (all of) these.

I suspect that QF would prefer that AFF/FT/Facebook groups were a LOT less responsive to the introduction of new/changed rules. But if QF wishes the changes to be accepted quietly, they need to accept that some customers will respond to them. And perhaps (likely) not in the way that QF intended. And have much better internal discussions before implementation.

I've wandered enough.

Fred
 
Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

This was definitely the message that came across at the loyalty lunch that a few of us including yourself and medhead attended.

Your last point is often overlooked and IMO there was and still is at times a tendency for an OzBargain style frenzy to take hold.

I wonder how many people actually did earn P1 predominantly through MASAs? 10? 20? 100?

Is that really an Ozbargain frenzy?

Did it actually cost QF anything - as most of the P1 benefits only arise when flying?
 
Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

I wonder how many people actually did earn P1 predominantly through MASAs? 10? 20? 100?

Is that really an Ozbargain frenzy?

Did it actually cost QF anything - as most of the P1 benefits only arise when flying?

I don't know how many did but it was enough for QF to realize that they hadn't thought of that as a way to get to P1 and that they didn't intend on letting it go on.

I was not referring to the OzBargain frenzy in relation to increased numbers of P1's. I put that comment in a separate paragraph. I was referring to JohnK's earlier comments about TSV and HBR as being an example of something that was pretty lucrative for cheap SC earning and was well publicized and detailed on here. There are numerous other examples if you search here from 2011 onwards.
 
When the JASA was around, +1 and I spent "thousands" with QF.
Stuck with QF for a while, still flying J on Classics, saved "thousands" and got the same service. Now mostly credit points to Citi not QF, fly VA with family pooling. Citi points will get me SQ. Except that I still have a massive QF points balance, it's bye bye QF for the most part.
 
Don't think it ever would have caused a frenzy - too many $s needed to be spent.

And not much value from spending big $s and points from P to P1 (if close maybe).

Suspect much greater cost from people using these to gain P/G

Either way it's QFs program and they can choose to change it. We can choose to stay, go out change behaviour
 
Don't think it ever would have caused a frenzy - too many $s needed to be spent.

And not much value from spending big $s and points from P to P1 (if close maybe).

Suspect much greater cost from people using these to gain P/G

Either way it's QFs program and they can choose to change it. We can choose to stay, go out change behaviour

That's where the biggest growth would have been, increased Gold and Platinum. Coupled with DSC, I think there would have been quite a few new status members during that period.
 
Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

I don't know how many did but it was enough for QF to realize that they hadn't thought of that as a way to get to P1 and that they didn't intend on letting it go on.

Or else the company learns about short-cuts through fora such as AFF and decideds to pick low hanging fruit. Easy, simple win to save a few dollars. Looks good on annual performance reviews. And a good story around the management table?
 
Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Or else the company learns about short-cuts through fora such as AFF and decideds to pick low hanging fruit. Easy, simple win to save a few dollars. Looks good on annual performance reviews. And a good story around the management table?

:lol: You may well be right there !!

P1 projections based on X dollars spend to get WP, therefore 3X dollars to get P1. Obviously an estimate in the business plan of numbers spending 3X was wildly inaccurate when it came to actual numbers of P1's. The minimum SC earn on QF is a clear indicator that spend was a consideration on this.

Never identify a problem unless you have a solution - get rid of ASA's and its happy days again.
 
Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

The one thing I have learnt over the last four or five years is that frequent flyer programs have little to do with loyalty - mine or the airline's. It is just business, the airline wants to maximise its profits and I want to minimise my costs whilst maximising benefits when traveling.

The mASA made it Xmas for me every time I booked. At peak I was earning more than 200,000 points purely from mASA's every year. My first year as a P1 was earned on cash fares, but the following years the mASA came to dominate and there is no doubt QF lost revenue from me as a result of the mASA. My assumption, rightly or wrongly is that the sales of points to Amex and the banks did not offset this revenue loss. (As an aside I don't and didn't have have any ATO payments to capitalise on either.)

I may be wrong, but the benefits I have received from QF far outweigh my value as a customer to them. I have been able to achieve the benefit levels I like and keep some extra cash in my pocket - extra cash that I may have spent with QF if it were not for the mASA. QF's goal is to extract that extra cash from my pocket so in turn has removed the mASA and made it harder to earn status by using OW airlines. It is not about loyalty it is business.

I could spend the extra cash with QF, but first it is time to look around to see if I am better off with an alternative strategy.....and after a bit of research it is clear that I am better off with another airline's FF program. I do have to spend a little more than I did, but not as much as I would have to spend if continued with QF. So I am spending more cash on flights but not with QF. I also have little need for QF points too. In reality though I suspect QF is better off without me because the loss of my revenue will be more than offset by those that continue down the QF path paying more for their benefits (status).

As for the OP I think his issue has not been addressed by the arm of QF "Loyalty" that needs to deal with it. I suspect when someone with the authority to use their initiative looks at it the answer may be different.

Interesting view.

Can't totally agree.

QF certainly gained more hard $$$ from me than they otherwise would have.

Significantly so.

In your case - you posit that you would have taken the same flights in any event, but in a manner (cash) that would have delivered a higher yield.

For starters - the question/comment above is referring to those who took "extra" gratuitous flights.

You also forget that mASAs came from YM-controlled fare buckets.

The Inventory was highly and closely managed.

If not redeemed as a mASA, those seats would have been redeemed as Classic Awards.

The only real cost to QF was the points and SCs earned on those flights, which were partially offset by higher cash co-payments.

Not to mention all the additional revenue generated by you by allowing yourself to become enamored by the Golden Handcuffs.

Now that the handcuffs are off - you've seen the light and are directing more and more and more business away from QF.

In the end they'll lose more than you.
 
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Now that the handcuffs are off - you've seen the light and are directing more and more and more business away from QF.
There's the rub. If taking away a MASA means people go somewhere else, to me means they were never loyal to Qantas. Addicted maybe. It amuses me to see people on this board act like petulant children that have had an ice cream taken off them. Maybe it is withdrawal symptons. Bottom line - MASA ended up making no sense to Qantas, and the clearly make no sense to other airlines. The horse has bolted, all the arguments about how Qantas don't know what they are doing isn't going to bring them back....
 
There's the rub. If taking away a MASA means people go somewhere else, to me means they were never loyal to Qantas. Addicted maybe. It amuses me to see people on this board act like petulant children that have had an ice cream taken off them. Maybe it is withdrawal symptons. Bottom line - MASA ended up making no sense to Qantas, and the clearly make no sense to other airlines. The horse has bolted, all the arguments about how Qantas don't know what they are doing isn't going to bring them back....

Or else it means passengers were loyal, but you change the product too much and passengers leave. Removal of anytime access, removal of ASAs, charging for exit rows, adding the cost of awards if you combine Qantas with a partner airlines (instead of distance based), simpler and fairer, insanely high redemption levels, reduced earning, fuel surcharges on award tickets, mileage charts that put some destinations in lower zones despite geographic fact otherwise.

If you have all stick and no carrot, you can hardly label people as being disloyal - they've simply decided to stop being taken for a ride.
 
There's the rub. If taking away a MASA means people go somewhere else, to me means they were never loyal to Qantas. Addicted maybe. It amuses me to see people on this board act like petulant children that have had an ice cream taken off them. Maybe it is withdrawal symptons. Bottom line - MASA ended up making no sense to Qantas, and the clearly make no sense to other airlines. The horse has bolted, all the arguments about how Qantas don't know what they are doing isn't going to bring them back....

No - you totally don't seem to understand how loyalty programs work at all.

TonyHancock was very loyal - to the point where he was spending more than he should with QF because he was receiving value and perceived loyalty benefits in return.

QF was gaining a net increase in hard currency from the relationship.

Loyalty programs are all about gamification. In this case - by changing the overall value proposition - QF have encouraged TonyHancock to re-evaluate his spend. This is rationality - not disloyalty.

Loyalty is not simply blindly giving business to QF without any rational logical value assessment.

Loyalty is about rewarding loyal behaviour. In this thread example - it's not about them not coming back (of course they're not), it's about reinforcing the issue of getting the value proposition right.

Get it right - and you generate more loyal customers (who by definition, spend more $$ with you than they otherwise would).

Get it wrong - enhance program benefits away - you force customers to re-evaluate the relationship.

Qantas make assumptions and calculations about how many customers will be lost as a result of "enhancements" and then they make a calculated decision.

The contention by many folks here (evidenced by their real world changes in behaviour) is that quite often - QF's assumptions are wrong, and the Net-Loyalty-Result comes off worse than expected for QF.
 
Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

.

A good PR practitioner - from board level downwards - will look at proposed messaging and say 'hey - my customers won't accept this'. And then they work with the company to come up with a solution. This includes removing spin when the spin looks silly.
.

Almost agree but in PR it just has to be MOST customers, not all - and that's why QF did it because the customers affected were in a minuscule minority of both numbers but also value
 
OK..just to clarify my position....

1. I am/was, over the last three years, neither loyal or addicted to QF
2. Using mASA's most definitely reduced my $ spend with QF
3. P1 is a status worth having if you travel a lot with QF

Each year I need to get to the UK and back five to six times. I have a budget, that whilst has some flex, certainly does not run to $8-10k fares. I also need to get to Asia up to eight times a year and then also carry out a bit of domestic travel.

The mASA allowed me to meet my goals. The status (benefits) the mASA brought put me near the top of the tree for points upgrades, provided numerous complimentary upgrades and ensured I was well looked after onboard in the lower cabins and of course if things went wrong.

On top of this I was/am also able to maintain Platinum status with VA. The mASA enabled me to do this because I was spending less with QF. (Not a great outcome for QF)

What is unknown to me is the value, to QF, of the points I used. I suspect it is less than the $'s I would have needed to spend. I did make a couple of "status runs" but neither was actually much use because I hit P1 without the need for the additional SC's. I guess in that regard QF got some extra cash out of me.

With the decline of the mASA I could continue to fly QF, predominantly in Y+ or find another strategy. I am now more familiar with UL, BA and MH. :)

Personally I think QF is probably better off without me, they still get some spend because I am crediting another OW carrier so still book QF flights and use points for upgrades, at least until I have burnt off my little stash. When I fall from P1 in July 2016 that will change and my trips to Asia will be with CX or SQ...but that is a while off and I am still working my "business" plan out for my flying a year out.

The mASA was a gift that just kept giving and I am not at all surprised QF removed it. I am just happy it lasted as long as it did.
 
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Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Almost agree but in PR it just has to be MOST customers, not all - and that's why QF did it because the customers affected were in a minuscule minority of both numbers but also value

Actually good PR deals with everyone. Even the detractors. If you have good PR in place you neutralise (or turn to a positive) those who might speak against the brand/product.

When you have spin spin spin, no one really believes you when you say 'our customers demanded we start charging for exit rows'... whether it's true or not!
 
OK..just to clarify my position....

1. I am/was, over the last three years, neither loyal or addicted to QF
2. Using mASA's most definitely reduced my $ spend with QF

Did it though??

The most likely scenario is that instead of redeeming mASAs, you would have foregone chasing status and simply redeemed Classic Awards.

By redeeming mASA redemptions, you were contributing a higher co-pay than the equivalent Classic.

Also - your scenario only works if each and every mASA was replaced by a revenue J/F fare.

I'm taking a stab that if you hadn't redeemed those mASAs and were paying cash, that you probably would have been purchasing discount whY fares in many instances.

So without even considering status loyalty, I think your analysis is flawed (based on our previous real life conversations at the DYKWIA Society).

And of course - without chasing status, you may have been less inclined to direct that volume of business to QF.
 
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