Is loyalty dead?

[Deleted member 29185]

Yes but are we loyal to one company? No....we take out business to whoever gives us the best deal!

Ah yes ... loyalty to oneself! I like that.

I'm still trying to come to terms with the OP.Why were not the status benefits available? Or was Europcar being obstinate?

Obstinate? ... or just being constrained by overbearing and inflexible policy? I assumed it was about security of card holder details etc, but the reality is that there was no way any of the three tiers of call centre management would relent. The answer remained "no way". They let me cancel all my current bookings and walk over to AVIS ... whilst I had them on the phone.

I prefer to call it, mutual extortion. And I think both sides are pretty much as aware as each other as to the dynamics of that kind of relationship.

Regardless the term, I have 53 rentals and 135 rental days this period (status with these coughs is 2 yearly) and a lot of $$$ spent with them from me personally (but I do understand not as many as some companies) and I'm sick of the attempted rip offs (especially from CNS) and all I needed to walk was just a little shove. They did that. It's nothing to do with legalities as AVIS were more than happy to oblige and I hold no status or even history to speak of with them. Hertz is rubbish so AVIS were the next best of a bad bunch I guess. I also forgot to point out that Europcar would have netted me 1500 KF miles, AVIS will give me 4000. Europcar upgrades are now cough and as I just found out, I can buy the next car class up and still be financially in front. Where exactly is the benefit of VIP I wonder?

 

[NZflygirl]

I have to see an angle acceptable to me in order to try a loyalty program or stay. No one program will meet all my needs for every trip so why should I only have one? And there is a difference between what I want from work and from personal travel so I need flexibility. Flexibility makes me feel free. Funnily enough that's exactly what BFOD gives you!

I think FFPs have more tangible benefits than hotels and in turn hotels more than cars.

I signed up to 5 car programs for speedy pick up, anything else is a bonus. eg Europcar Accor relationship, free rentals, airline points. Joined 6 hotel programmes with no regrets and still feeling them out. Points generally don't expire with stays barring PGR (5yrs?). I fly a few carriers NZ/Oz mainly and am largely happy with things. I don't feel locked in. I think maybe I just have preferences rather than loyalty? But in saying that I know it's the loyalty programme that makes me aim for a target. I know it's my wallet that makes me go elsewhere sometimes eg scoot biz over SQ Y due to perceived $$ value, comfort. But I feel like I'm spreading my loyalty far and wide which in turn doesn't make me feel loyal much. But I'm happy! And that's the bottom line - do what makes you happy.

 

[NZflygirl]

What is particularly worrying is my desire to maintain Spire with IHG which is driven by desire not to be of a lower status than my colleagues in the UK and US if we have to stay in the same, dreadful, Holiday Inn somewhere. :shock:

Uh-oh, keeping up with the Jones's ..... never a good game.

Solution - surround yourself with the paupers. I am only gold

Not really a HI fan but will stay.

 

[odysseus]

Hertz is rubbish so AVIS were the next best of a bad bunch I guess.

Glad you found something you liked.

Hope I'm not jinxing things, but I've been treated well in Hertz's program so am loyal to them and they haven't given me reason to look elsewhere. Generally the only reason I book with another is when there isn't a Hertz locale in the vicinity.

As another poster said, best to go with whatever makes you happy, loyalty program or not.

 

[dfcatch]

Europcar..... 'nuff sed

 

[NZflygirl]

I actually haven't had a problem with Europcar and find that points post to Accor without having to be chased up which is great. Free rental weekend worked a treat! that said I was doing some reading and may try using Hertz when they have promos as points don't expire? Just to accrue for personal use. Prefer budget to AVIS but if sixt cheaper I'll go there for personal use! Actually budget gave me more free upgrades than any other company but that was out of Wellington also to SUV. Europcar gave me a free upgrade from CHC recently smallest to SUV. Sometimes when I have no say over car booked for me I get large sedans which I dislike which has mainly been Oz. I like compact or SUV.

Cant remember who I used for Cairns. Red spot? But I hadn't signed up with cars. I am undecided about going for VIP as 15 rental for another free weekend I'm not sure and already have priority pass. The home pick up thing doesn't apply to my region either. Need one more rental for executive then will go for elite. Should give me time to look properly at ins and outs of others and maybe choose a 2nd more loyal program but this won't preclude me from booking other companies along the way.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I think FFPs have more tangible benefits than hotels and in turn hotels more than cars.

I actually haven't had a problem with Europcar and find that points post to Accor without having to be chased up which is great.

You placed airline FFP's above both accommodation and car hire (which I agree whole-heartedly with), yet you send your Europcar points to Accor and are toying with the idea of building a Hertz balance??

You can use Europcar and gain the same discount as Accor (15%) and get 1500 KF miles through this link or you can get a 20% discount and 4000 KF points with AVIS through this link. I consider KF miles to be worth more than Accor points. (note there are limits at the moment of end of this month, but they do regularly get extended).

EDIT ... Actually, the europcar KF link I posted above I think does not give the discount. When I'm back at work at the end of next week I'll find the discount link.

 

[drron]

Well I am loyal to a point.Was loyal to Hilton for 7 years but they took me for granted so did a status match to SPG.First stat after being matched was at the Westin Madrid.Got upgraded to the Royal Suite.The next day was Spain Day so able to watch the parade from our balcony.SPG won.
However there are grades of my loyalty.Even if I walk away from SPG we will continue to stay at the SGS Bangkok.Treated like family.
Also became friends with one of their Asst.Managers.He has gone on to be a GM and whenever he moves we go and stay where he is the GM-hence the unusual choice of the Sheraton Waikiki this December.

 

[NZflygirl]

A

You placed airline FFP's above both accommodation and car hire (which I agree whole-heartedly with), yet you send your Europcar points to Accor and are toying with the idea of building a Hertz balance??

You can use Europcar and gain the same discount as Accor (15%) and get 1500 KF miles through this link or you can get a 20% discount and 4000 KF points with AVIS through this link. I consider KF miles to be worth more than Accor points. (note there are limits at the moment of end of this month, but they do regularly get extended).

EDIT ... Actually, the europcar KF link I posted above I think does not give the discount. When I'm back at work at the end of next week I'll find the discount link.

Well I can't send everything to airlines as I'll get no benefits on the ground! And personal trips away its flights accommodation, car etc. Yes I did notice the 15% Accor discount from Europcar AFTER signing up for A+ which is great for dining benefits and free night on a hotel that costs more than the membership. Although I've just signed for the AMEX charge and A+ comes with it for NZ so will activate it when current membership expires. Flying home today so will pick physical card up and read stuff.

Re:Hertz I don't think the benefits past Elite with Europcar are worth pursuing (yet to finalise decision) so need another program and due to lack of points expiry with activity it may be a goer if there are promos. I will probably hit elite before my 2 yrs is up so that's when I will try to divert. But upfront costs are important to me. I'm the daughter of an ex bean counter So if I can't find a website where Hertz are cheaper (Tried IHG then realised discount is UP to 35% not AT 35%) then I will rent from elsewhere. I aim to earn from work related and spend on personal - I'm sure like most so thresholds for what is acceptable to me change. If it works out for personal to go with Hertz that works too. Have the option of activating some status via a cc but I haven't read the fine print yet. As stated budget have actually given me more upgrades so. This is my first year joining car programs (junior burger mistake) so still feeling way through.

For me I'll probably fly NZ over SQ because NZs network of the pacific rim is just too convenient. Also with status, flying and cc earn we have APD to burn and although buying flights outright isn't stretching the value I thought - why should we buy Y just for the chance to upgrade when we can confirm PE and still have leftover APD especially long haul. May put in for upgrade to J. We did fly SQ back from SIN previously but that was a scheduling decision. I'll try out WLG-CBR to avoid SYD when it starts. From NZ only flying to SIN there are other options eg Scoot to get guaranteed "biz" seat wins out over SQ Y for chance to upgrade to SQ PE. I've flown a few of SQs products in the past and they are good but my mindset is different now.

I need to read around SQ a lot more but looking at NZ AMEX SQ is where points are likely headed as QF can earn via other means. Still have reading to do. My meagre VA points will also head to SQ. I can't see me redeeming on VA. Any NZ overflow once VA target reached which is sort of now will also head to SQ. Discovered I can even send occasional domestic NZ to SQ. So I can accrue to SQ via other means. SQ will sort of be overflow from the NZ/VA relationship. There is only 1 route I will redeem on AKL-SIN...maybe Oz eg SYD and flying SQ will only be if we have excess KF miles otherwise I'll redeem on Scoot. I think we are flying back SIN-SYD-AKL for $375 each total Scoot biz we would come back NZ PE but to allow time for Scoot I chose the VA flight time but have flexibility to change as bought via NZ site. Much cheaper than NZ 1600 one way but we are only paying 800ea to fly PE. Could have been less but I wasn't sure whether to gamble on another sale coming up and it's sort of still peak so gambling on upgrades isn't smart.

From SIN-Europe/UK I want EY or QR at this point in time. So SQ is much further down my list of carriers than others lists. Within Asia there are cheaper carriers for the short hops. I'd rather save $ and spend on accommodation or cars or activities.

So KF miles may be more valuable but I don't have a lot of ways of accruing Accor points except stays so I don't mind sending Europcar there. AVIS and budget have sent to airlines previously but I very much appreciate your KF miles find.

This whole loyalty program thing is very fluid, dynamic. What is right for one trip I may not evaluate as being right for the next and this is regardless of program changes. A special occasion I may want upmarket, which is different from a weekend away which is different from work trips etc etc So I will go with flexibility. I have Accor gold/A+ but plat is no use to me when lots of places don't have lounges or the location is inconvenient for a particular city so am happy to spread the love and not feel hindered in trip planning by "loyalty". Approaches for peak season loyalty are different to off peak. So I try and weigh things up before accruing points now to a program and if only limited ways of accruing to a program then I have to work with that.

Boarding call!

 

[Pleb Status]

Loyalty is dead once companies take it for granted. Consumers need a carrot in order to remain loyal take it away and the customer goes.

My VA loyalty has just about ended.

This is the exact opposite of loyalty.

A 'loyal' customer does not need inducements to use the services of a business. Imagine if a 'loyal' friend came to your place only because you gave them free beer and as soon as the beer ran out they leave to go to somewhere else offering free beer.

Most customers believe they are 'loyal' just because they use the services of a company. That does not make someone 'loyal'.

There are plenty of companies I have used exclusively for many years which I would drop immediately if something remotely better comes along.

 

[marki]

Not sure it was ever alive ..... Maybe in some Frankenstein way it was making its way into out wallet!
A one way street it at times. Hello Hilton Sydney and Qantas platinum members.

 

[dfcatch]

This is the exact opposite of loyalty.

A 'loyal' customer does not need inducements to use the services of a business. Imagine if a 'loyal' friend came to your place only because you gave them free beer and as soon as the beer ran out they leave to go to somewhere else offering free beer.

.

Actually - it's not.

What you describe is the very basis of a loyalty program - which is about behavioral loyalty.

It's called operant conditioning, which no doubt you know about if you recall BF Skinner.

The carrot going away and the customer going away too is a classic case of "extinction".

Simply put - when you remove the reinforcer, the reinforced behavior will gradually stop occurring.

Stop providing the benefits that made a customer choose you over a competitor (often at more expense or inconvenience) - then the customer will stop choosing you based on those benefits.


Good loyalty programs transition customers from behavioral loyalty to emotional loyalty - but it still works on a basic premise of reinforcement (even if it's not as clear to see as free beer).

In your "loyal friend" example - the relationship has moved beyond beer, there is an emotional connection, the friendship is valued so the behavior continues to be reinforced, albeit in a different manner. Despite the beer fridge being empty - your friend still shows up, perhaps for the benefit of a warm fuzzy feeling, maybe watching the footy, maybe scintillating discussion.

Take away the reinforcement - and science proves - your friend will stop showing up. (Although in a more mature "true loyalty" relationship - it will take more to break that emotional connection).

I explain more here - The Psychology of Loyalty Programs

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Actually - it's not.

I think Pleb Status was referring the word "loyalty" in itself rather than placing it in the context of a loyalty program, which I guess is PR spin in any case. Perhaps they should really be called Inducement Programs.

 

[dfcatch]

I think Pleb Status was referring the word "loyalty" in itself rather than placing it in the context of a loyalty program, which I guess is PR spin in any case. Perhaps they should really be called Inducement Programs.

Agreed - but even in the common-sense usage of the term (and the meaning that we berate airlines about for ignoring) it's still a two-way street.

Whether it's buying our favorite Apple products - OMG there's a new iPhone!!!

Or loyalty to family/spouse/footy team.

 

[Pleb Status]

I think Pleb Status was referring the word "loyalty" in itself rather than placing it in the context of a loyalty program, which I guess is PR spin in any case. Perhaps they should really be called Inducement Programs.

Your interpretation was correct swanning it.

I also agree with dfcatch that 'loyalty' is a two way street, but that also means you have to take the bad with the good sometimes.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

that also means you have to take the bad with the good sometimes.

Umm, are you speaking of "loyalty programs" or "loyalty". Certainly I agree with plain simple loyalty, but not with a loyalty program. If it's bad, we certainly don't have to take it.

 

[Pleb Status]

Umm, are you speaking of "loyalty programs" or "loyalty". Certainly I agree with plain simple loyalty, but not with a loyalty program. If it's bad, we certainly don't have to take it.

With 'loyalty', not 'loyalty/inducement' programs.

In the customer/business relationship, the customer should always act on what is best for them and not for the business. However, this is a two edged sword and the customer should not be too surprised/unhappy when the business does the same.

 

[rainbowgirl]

I think loyalty is dead in terms of supermarkets.

I mix between Coles and Woolworths, with the occasional shop at Aldi and IGA. I use the loyalty programs from the big 2 against them. I have each of them convinced that I rarely spend more than $70 a week on supermarket groceries when in fact our supermarket spend averages out at $140 per week. My usual target for offers is $50 and I get about 20% back on average from bonuses from the loyalty program. These figures are based on just over 3 years of data.

If fun had anything to do with loyalty, I would be loyal to Coles. I have many fond memories from childhood of shopping at Coles with my family. This is during the times they had cafeterias and fast food within the supermarket and also carried lots of variety items which I used to like looking through while mum got the groceries. As soon as we'd get to the checkouts, mum would give me money to buy a bucket of hot chips.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I have many fond memories from childhood of shopping at Coles with my family. This is during the times they had cafeterias and fast food within the supermarket

I still use the saying "this place is as noisy as Coles cafeteria"!

 

[TonyHancock]

I still use the saying "this place is as noisy as Coles cafeteria"!

Quite an apt description of the breakfast rush in the Qantas F Lounge in Sydney.