Jetstar problems

[anat0l]

Hogwash, my friend. I don`t know your background, but as a very frequent flyer of seventy plus who uses airlines at least twenty times a year, I can assure you that any assertion that a five hour late arrival after spending eighteen hours in the air or at airports on what what supposed to be a ten flying hours trip might be commonplace is to say the earth is flat and Elvis lives.

No one was suggesting it was commonplace, but what was suggested is that there probably isn't a single airline which has been on time all the time, and in many cases there probably isn't an airline which has not suffered at least one incident of serious delay and/or has never cancelled a flight.

This kind of thing is certainly not acceptable and we don't like it as much as you, but it does happen and you would be very naive - even with your "experience" - to think it cannot happen (read: "there is absolutely no chance that it could happen") and especially to think it cannot happen to you. For any given airline, we would like to hope it does not happen often. Recovery mechanisms from such incidents also colour how we view airlines, as you've aptly demonstrated.

Every time I book now - and I've done this for a while - I am always conscious of a backup plan and contacts if things go awry. Of course I am not expecting nor wanting anything to go wrong, but if it did happen I want to know that I can recover as smoothly as possible. This is especially apparent for me because I often travel having to make flight connections, which is perhaps one of the messiest and biggest potentials for disaster when flights are delayed or cancelled.

I made my first commercial flights in DC3s, Convair turboprops, and DeHavilland Comets back in the sixties when the primitive state of air travel would have justified a disastrous timetable, but when the reality was that we left and got there pretty much on time. Maybe this was blind luck, or the planes were better maintained, or simply because back then people who ran airlines cared about us.
And if you cast about you, you will still find people who care, and can and do run great airlines. The problem we seem to be stuck with here at the bottom of the world is that few, of any, of these worthy and admirable souls seem to work for the Flying Roo.

So you're a long term flyer from the old, romantic days of flying.

Unfortunately, flying has become something which is now in the common budget and reach of a lot more people than before. It is becoming less and less of a "romantic" activity or form of travel than it used to be. Consequently, those that have come out of that age and are flying today often criticise air travel today as having lost that value and it is a travesty to the days of old. I'm sorry to step on your dream, but I believe those days are over and we'll never see them again.

Perhaps I can say this easily because I only started flying by myself in 2005 (I always traveled with family before this); by this time, air travel had become the industry it is today (albeit maybe slightly better then). In saying that, there are things which the industry is both doing better (but perhaps not as fast as or faster than it is doing worse).

I too have a dream - that one day soon, on the well-packed planes currently wearing Jetstar tail logos on the Japan route, that some carrier focussed more on long-term duty to the travelling public than the current upstart misfits will step up to the plate. Given half a chance, Singapore Air, Emirates, Virgin, Korean or Cathay could make the current impersonation of an airline by Jetstar nothing more than the fading memory of some unhappy travelling nightmare from the distant past.

Ha! I'm sorry but I must laugh at your absolute naivety.

Given half a chance? All the airlines you have mentioned have a lot more hope of doing much better than Jetstar than the meagre credit you seem to give them. Keep in mind that Singapore Air is - on average - one of, if not the, best airlines in the world (irrespective of the opinions of the members of this forum). Ditto for Emirates.

If you want my opinion, if full cost airlines like Singapore, Emirates, Korean and Cathay can't do better than Jetstar, then that would be far, far worse than any impersonation of an airline. I'd go so far as to suggest that the management of those mentioned airlines who can't better Jetstar should be shot.

And when that day happens along, I`ll be there at the front of a very long queue - with baited breath and credit card waving and friends waiting at far-flung airports around the world who will not spit and glare at me for keeping them waiting for five hours.

I'll be there, too, but honestly Jetstar have a very long way to go.

I consider them a low cost carrier and that is how I will treat them when evaluating my options. For what it's worth, I've flown JQ19 and JQ20 before and had absolutely no problems at all. I've also flown Jetstar many times before and have only had delays a couple of times (the worst delay is about 40 minutes). I don't fly them enough to give them suitable judgement, but I don't fly them often because I don't consider them as my first choice.

For Australia - Japan non-stop routes, having Jetstar as one of those options isn't spectacular. There are Qantas flights, but they are getting fewer and use 767s. Really shows you how much the Qantas Group care about that particular market.

 

[Astroboy]

"I made my first commercial flights in DC3s, Convair turboprops, and DeHavilland Comets" -parispete

And survived? Isn't it great to be alive!

 

[mannej]

Parispete, I definitely wasn't having a dig, or stating it was commonplace or acceptable. I was just stating that it happens on all carriers. It is naive to think it won't happen, and it is bad luck when it happens to you.

In regards to your comment about a 10 hour flight turning into a 18hr flight, it happens, I remember when a 5hr MH flight turning into over a 24 hr flight because 2 of their A330's failed, so it is not limited to JQ/QF. However as they got you to your destination without the need for an overnight somewhere, they are not obliged to put you up.

These delays do happen, and it comes down to bad luck more than anything if you do happen to encounter one. Naive to think otherwise.

 

[thewinchester]

Sorry, but I couldn't read Parispete's posts. Comic Sans MS in Blue, please stop now.

 

[anat0l]

Sorry, but I couldn't read Parispete's posts. Comic Sans MS in Blue, please stop now.

Copy and paste the text into Notepad and read it there.

 

[markis10]

Wish the travelling public would read the terms and conditions of carriage and adjust their expectations accordingly, you cannot take a $330 fare from Aust to Japan and expect all the trappings of a $500-$1000 fare you may have previously under a different service/carrier.

Put simply you are paying to get from point a to point b safely, the time it takes to acheive this may vary, frills cost money, that includes being able to rustle up another aircraft when things go wrong, which happens, cest le vie!

 

[parispete]

First, let me apologise profoundly if I am coming across like some ranting old fart. This was never my intention, nor did I want to be seen as pontificating or causing offence to others with whom I may be seen to disagree on certain points. As I have stated, I was and still am a big fan of Qantas.
But the credit balance of my goodwill towards them is being fast eroded into a negative balance, and having been a pilot in my younger days, I prefer to suggest drastic methods of improvement rather than an across-the-board bagging of a once great airline.
I agree with everyone that a budget company like Jetstar can not be expected to feature all the frills of a full-fare setup. But many of the cost savings are already borne by the travelling public.
Under this heading, I speak of the often two hour delay on the Kansai route through the stopover at Gold Coast, the absence of food if you elect a no-frills option, ditto the cabin bag only. If you want to apportion a cost/convenience factor to each of these factors, it`s up to you whether a couple of hundred bucks saved (or more) is worth the extra time, less baggage, and no food. When you further consider the possibility of having to fund your own overnight stay at an airport hotel if Jetstar gets you in late - as has been suggested they are entitled to do - then my patience with them snaps. The savings are then clearly outweighed by the `pain in the cough` factor of the sheer inconvenience. Add to this, in my case, the poor people who hung around to meet me having hours wasted and then having to return home on the last train.
Everyone is absolutely correct in reminding me of the cutthroat nature of modern airline competition, and again, I say touche, it`s true that it`s a hard world out there. But this hard world that is supposed to exist is simply one I have encountered only with Jetstar, so please excuse my speaking only from personal experience and not what I read in airline complaint columns.
Jetstar had an auspicious beginning, grew fast, and then, in my books, fell apart.
Consider this. During my initial flight from Sydney to the Gold Coast, a woman in the row behind me, called someone on her mobile as soon as we landed. She, like me, seemed to have people waiting at Kansai, and according to the conversation she had with an unknown person, was told that THREE Jetstar planes had not come up to scratch for flights on December 12th last, causing the respective flights to be cancelled at zero notice. I have no idea whether her information was correct, but it would be interesting to know from readers of this column - and expressly NOT from Jetstar - whether other flight cancellations might bear out this rather alarming tipoff.
I have recently used Silk Air, Asiana, and a couple of other cheapies who worked for me like a Swiss watch, so my attitude is `if they can do it, then why not Jetstar?`
I do not seek a war of words, since for every satisfied flyer, which is usually me, there is somebody else with a death camp horror story, but I can only state the truth as I have experienced it, and this is emphatically that Jetstar has began to stink like a　dead rat in the sun. And, yes, it`s not just the hard world that`s to blame - men at the top make a colossal difference. Geoff Dixon was one such - tough as nails, but a realist. You only need hark back to `the man in the camel suit` episode to see how weak leadership can filter down to loonies running the asylum and everything in the air transport business heading down the spout.
No, I don`t like arriving five hours late, having friends waste a day, having no prior notice of delays and cancellations, then being consistently lied to about `on our way in ten minutes`, `we`ll make up the time`, `don`t worry, you`ll be on the ground in plenty of time to make a train` and then, to top it off, receiving a Jetstar `satisfaction survey`. Hopefully, the latter will alert them to a degree of seething dissatisfaction, but perhaps, like many of those gently at issue with my comments, they will tell each other that it`s a hard world out there, and don`t worry, Jetstar is doing just fine`.
Well, mates, I don`t think so.

 

[straitman]

parispete,

Could you please desist from posting in bright blue as per the comments in post #84 :?:

Appreciated in advance.

 

[markis10]

parispete,

Could you please desist from posting in bright blue as per the comments in post #84 :?:

Appreciated in advance.

+1 its too hard to read, making the effort you put in less appreciated because less read it.

 

[medhead]

Ha! I'm sorry but I must laugh at your absolute naivety.

Given half a chance? All the airlines you have mentioned have a lot more hope of doing much better than Jetstar than the meagre credit you seem to give them.

I can't help but feel you've misread this bit of Parispete's post. The way I read it, there was absolue agreement with what you wrote. "Even with half a chance" those airlines would make jetstar a fading memory - i.e. consign jetstar to the history books. Seems pretty clear you are both saying the same thing.

BTW I like the blue, kinda. But then I got a keg on rapidly melting ice and no fridge room, my judgement could be impaired. ;-)

 

[Flashback]

Welcome to AFF Parispete. Unfortunately, that is all part of the travel experience; if you don't like it.... don't fly.

Also, Jetstar didn't force you to stay at an airport hotel. There are plenty of transport options, even at that time of night to get you to your already booked accommodation.

 

[parispete]

First, sorry for the blue text. It has become a habit with aging eyeballs, but I`m happy to change it back to black.
Second, to bright spark who alleges I had an option by arriving post 11pm at Kansai airport. You are quite correct is revealing my unneccarily opting for the comfort of the airport hotel.
I did have a perfectly acceptible alternative, had I not been so forgetful in not packing my Speedos. Yes, there were no more trains or buses or coaches, but I could have dived in and swum across the bay.
But then I might have had to claim on Jetstar for shark damage, or being caught in a net and sold as sashimi. Kansai airport, you see, old son, is on a purpose-built artificial island a couple of K`s from terra firma. Let me know after you`ve put your money where your mouth is and tried the swim.

 

[gilby08]

But then I might have had to claim on Jetstar for shark damage, or being caught in a net and sold as sashimi. Kansai airport, you see, old son, is on a purpose-built artificial island a couple of K`s from terra firma. Let me know after you`ve put your money where your mouth is and tried the swim.

Wow, there is no need for this sarcasm in here. Also just to remind you this is a "frequent flyer community", with the key word being "Frequent". Alot of the other users on here DO know more about airlines that what your putting on, especially with airlines post 2004.
Also there is a scheduled flight that arrives at 2235 most days, and i'm pretty sure passengers would be actually getting out of the airport by a minimum of 11pm.

 

[Flashback]

First, sorry for the blue text. It has become a habit with aging eyeballs, but I`m happy to change it back to black.
Second, to bright spark who alleges I had an option by arriving post 11pm at Kansai airport. You are quite correct is revealing my unneccarily opting for the comfort of the airport hotel.
I did have a perfectly acceptible alternative, had I not been so forgetful in not packing my Speedos. Yes, there were no more trains or buses or coaches, but I could have dived in and swum across the bay.
But then I might have had to claim on Jetstar for shark damage, or being caught in a net and sold as sashimi. Kansai airport, you see, old son, is on a purpose-built artificial island a couple of K`s from terra firma. Let me know after you`ve put your money where your mouth is and tried the swim.

Biting the hand that feeds you, nice work. I've had many a friend who has been through the airport around 11pm and had no troubles getting to Osaka or Kyoto. Obviously YMMV

 

[mannej]

I am sorry to say Parispete, it is naive to think that all carriers will arrive on time every time. Delays happen get over it.

As stated you can get from KIX to terra firma at the time you arrived, so no need to get sarcastic over what has been posted. You opted for the airport hotel, so why should JQ foot the bill for that?

There are others who have been in the same situation as you have, but have found alternatives albeit hassle free. It is naive to think an airline is very bad just because you were delayed. JQ is a no-frills airline, and they got you to where you had to be. They have carried out their part of the contract, as it quite clearly states that they do not guarantee arrival time, nor does any full service legacy carrier.

Delays happen, it is just bad luck if you happen to be the one delayed.

 

[medhead]

I am sorry to say Parispete, it is naive to think that all carriers will arrive on time every time. Delays happen get over it.

As stated you can get from KIX to terra firma at the time you arrived, so no need to get sarcastic over what has been posted. You opted for the airport hotel, so why should JQ foot the bill for that?

Well one reason for compensation could be that they missed their onwards connection, that might have been booked together with the flight (perhaps unlikely in this case. Basically, there seems to have been a significant disruption, especially for a 70+ year old to warrant an extra hotel night.

Bear in mind that QF paid me $600 for a 6 hour delay to FRA which resulted in a missed train connection (booked with QF travel) and a lost day in Paris. No extra hotel nights, maybe a slight extra cost to book another train (~40 euro). But then that is for a NB travelling with a PS.

 

[mannej]

Very true Medhead, however JQ treat passengers very differently compared to QF unfortunately

 

[parispete]

Dear me, it seems I am being cast　as the meat(head) in the sandwich here. And all because, on my hundred-odd uses of Kansai airport, I have repeatedly failed to locate these late-running trains and buses everyone else seems to be using with such great success.
There are none. Consider this.
Knowing the advice from my Japanese cabin crew was nothing more than a prepared Jetstar `no worries, mate, she`ll be as right as the mail`, I was first out the door with only my little sub-ten kilo cabin bag, first through customs, and first out of the airport. Which is where I saw the transport board on the ground floor at Kansai that lists any available means of getting off the island. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Everyone home and beddybies.
But I nevertheless had enough credit on my Icoca card for the 2980 yen Haruka to Kyoto, so off I went, thundering down trackside only to find the board was right.
My hotel bookin time is shown on my credit card receipt as 11.29pm, by which time I had first called my friends from the platform phone to apologise for their wasted day, and bought a feed at the airport Lawson, the only thing still open. I always try for the 551 Horai, which is the greatest fast food bargain on the planet, but they had also long gone. Ditto for the Macca, Subway and the food court.
So I`d love to hear from these people clearly a lot brighter than me, about how they catch trains and buses that even the Kansai airport staff are inclined to think don`t exist.
Could it possibly be a case of a few VBs too many to soften those hard Jetstar seats?

 

[anat0l]

I can't help but feel you've misread this bit of Parispete's post. The way I read it, there was absolue agreement with what you wrote. "Even with half a chance" those airlines would make jetstar a fading memory - i.e. consign jetstar to the history books. Seems pretty clear you are both saying the same thing.

I guess I interpreted parispete's statement as meaning that these airlines needed half a chance. I'm saying that it's a hands-down conclusion - they don't need any "chances" - or else something is wrong with the world. (JQ better than CX? Over my dead body.)


As for how to get out of KIX during the late hours, as much as there are many people laying on the flak (rather unnecessarily as parispete's thick sarcasm), I thought I'd make it a little exercise for me. I used Wikitravel, Kansai Airport's website, links from both of those (including KATE and Hyperdia).

According to parispete's initial post, he arrived a shade after 11pm. I have no idea where your booked accommodation is, i.e. Osaka, Kyoto or Kobe; and if Osaka then where (Namba, Uehommachi, Umeda/Osaka Central, etc.). Using what I could find on the net and figuring on a Saturday timetable (I used 02/01/2010) from 11pm, there are some bleak options.

If you're trying to get to Kyoto, no chance - a train will take you as far as Tennoji or Namba, then a four hour wait for the first train to Kyoto.

If you're trying to get to Osaka, things are a bit more palatable.....

Shuttle Vans require advance reservation of 2 days, so in the case of a delay even with enough advance notice you can't book one on the same day.

Taxis are always an option, if you've got money to burn (sample fare on Wikitravel quotes JPY 16,000 to Osaka and about double that to Kyoto). There are delicate economics here to decide whether it would be worth burning a taxi ride late at night or not (i.e. weigh up the costs of cancelling original room + staying a night at the airport hotel).

The last train out of Kansai would be the Nankai Airport Express, which leaves at 2330h. The terminus of this train is Namba, which is one of the major centres of Osaka (but it isn't near Osaka Central or Umeda). If the hotel was not there and the subway stopped operating then, then at least the taxi fare from here to other places in Osaka would not be as extortionately unpalatable as that if you had taken a taxi from Kansai airport.

There is only one bus (KATE Route #5) I could find that goes to Umeda/Osaka Central which leaves after 2300h, and this is the last service which leaves 2315h. This shuttle is actually timed so that passengers from the last ANA service can catch it (so if the last ANA service is delayed, so will the departure time of this bus).

The last bus service to Kyoto from Kansai leaves at 2145h; the last OCAT bus (to Namba) leaves at 2225h.


In short, depending on when you got out of the terminal, you would have needed to high tail it fast to make the last train or last KATE bus (if it hadn't left before you got landside). Given that you checked into the airport hotel at 2329h and also you said there was "no services left", I'm surprised that the last Nankai Express was not there.

Still, if you had to stay at the airport, you could have saved yourself some cash by using the Kanku Lounge on level 2 (domestic check-in). At its most expensive, 9 hrs of lounge access would cost you JPY 3,800 (not including a shower). You wouldn't get a bed, of course, but you would at least get a lounge chair to sleep in.

If anyone found other options I missed, let me know.


In any case, delays happen and they very rarely make up on themselves. In fact, in my experience, delays usually snowball. Hence as soon as a delay is looming, I am always trying to think of a plan B. Hopping onto an internet terminal would be a good start (although I can sympathise with you because AFAIK there are no internet terminals in the pathetic excuse for an airport OOL's international transit area). The options I found you probably wouldn't guess without blind trying or some advance preparation; in saying that, "doing your homework" especially after knowing of the delays was probably a worthy idea, but that doesn't justify the flak leveled on you by some of the members of this forum.

Good example was earlier this year when I flew to ZQN for a day trip. I had a major international flight the next day, but I was flying AKL-ZQN then ZQN-CHC and CHC-AKL in the same day (needed to be in AKL for my 0850h flight to SYD the next day).

I could have avoided any headaches by not booking my ZQN trip, but I did. What would I do if the weather went to ****s at ZQN? This was winter, so it is a prime time for a ZQN time trap. What would happen if we diverted to IVC? How would I get back to AKL? How much would it cost (would it matter if I had to forfeit my AKL-SYD-... booking the next day instead?).

I had several options going through my head: book walk up fare from IVC-CHC, drive to CHC (at least 6 hrs let alone the cost for car hire and whether the roads might be closed), catch first CHC-AKL flight the next day (paying walk up again!) and make it just in a nick of time for my AKL-SYD, switch to ZQN-AKL on NZ and forfeit my other two sectors, etc. etc.

Of course with enough bad luck I would have lost everything, and then most people would say something like "you made your own bed, now lie in it" - and they'd be right (for similar reasons as we're discussing here). Lucky for me in the end, the flights were delayed (and my flight ZQN-CHC was on Qantas-Jetconnect!), but not too badly so we managed to escape ZQN just before the sun went down (upon which ZQN airport closes shop), so I made my CHC connection with relative ease (even easier when my CHC-AKL flight on NZ itself was also delayed!)

Sometimes air travel can be a fickle beast and sometimes we need to bite the bullet in times of trouble. Some of us pull out better than others.

 

[medhead]

I guess I interpreted parispete's statement as meaning that these airlines needed half a chance. I'm saying that it's a hands-down conclusion - they don't need any "chances" - or else something is wrong with the world. (JQ better than CX? Over my dead body.)

Ok, the thing is "given half a chance" is an idiom. It doesn't actually involve people needing chances. It means given the opportunity. At the moment I assume that CX, SQ, etc. don't have the opportunity to fly Oz to Japan, due to the various international transport laws and agreements and all that stuff. So he is saying if they had the opportunity, the chance, were allowed to, fly the route then those airlines would be far better than jetstar, as you say. Basically, you're both saying the same thing.

Great searching efforts on the Kansai transport options.