Lionair 610 crash

[jb747]

That's correct only two. There's only so much that can change before it no longer becomes a common type endorsement. The FAA have allowed a few changes to the max-10 even gone as far as changing the landing gear to fit into the existing holes (looks like an FA-18 bogey). As far as instrumentation goes, the obvious change is the 787 like screens. But there's still no EICAS and the same overhead panel. As far as I'm aware, that's as far as the FAA will allow Boeing to go. So the next variants of 737 may require a new type endorsement or at least some sort of conversion course for current pilots.

The great god, commonality, locking us into a very old design. I haven’t flown an aircraft without an EICAS like system in 30 years, and it’s hard to believe they are still made. I guess the 737 was meant to be replaced by the 757, but that didn’t work out as planned.

I was never a fan of the way that Airbus had set up the source/display switching, as it left out a couple of options that the 747/767 gave, and which I’ve had cause to use. But, it’s still miles ahead of any system with only two ADCs.

In any event, this is really just general discussion. We have no real reason to think that any of this was involved in this accident.

 

[jb747]

Whilst on the subject...I’ve actually seen two dual ADC failures. In one case that was just another in a long litany of things going wrong (QF30) with data being restored by the use of ‘BOTH ON - 2’.

The other occasion was during the A380’s early days. In that case it gave us law reversion to alternate II (meaning no automatics). The aircraft was a PITA to fly, because of the way the roll trim works (or rather doesn’t). Nevertheless, we continued to destination (which was 5 hours away), because that gave us much simpler options for the approach (daylight and high cloud base), as opposed to the closer alternatives, which would have been night arrivals in relatively poor weather. There is never a set answer.

 

[flyer89]

In that case it gave us law reversion to alternate II (meaning no automatics).

Was this the one where you all turned into gamers for 10 minutes at a time as you had to hand fly it?

 

[AviatorInsight]

So there’s no differences course at all for the MAX if you are already NG rated?

Correct, we've just gotten a powerpoint presentation explaining subtle differences but no sim time required.

 

[AviatorInsight]

Whilst on the subject...I’ve actually seen two dual ADC failures. In one case that was just another in a long litany of things going wrong (QF30) with data being restored by the use of ‘BOTH ON - 2’.

I've had to double check the tripler manuals because I couldn't remember seeing those BOTH ON - 2 switches, and it doesn't, the only switch it has is for the ADIRU.

There was talk that in the 'next next gen' 737 could make use of the 777 overhead panel and EICAS/Electronic Checklist. The current overhead panel still has the old ammeter cutouts from the B-17 and the dome light still says "dome white" even though there's no more "dome red" switch for reading at night. The throttle quadrant has basically been taken out from the 707 and I'm told that the nose section is basically a 707 nose.

 

[jb747]

Was this the one where you all turned into gamers for 10 minutes at a time as you had to hand fly it?

The issue wasn’t that it was being hand flown, but that it was out of roll trim. From memory it needed about a quarter of total joystick motion to hold wings level. I don’t know what force that is, but you got sick of it pretty fast.

 

[jb747]

I've had to double check the tripler manuals because I couldn't remember seeing those BOTH ON - 2 switches, and it doesn't, the only switch it has is for the ADIRU.

Well, colour me surprised. I expected the 777 to be basically the same as the 747-400, and it is in most ways. But source select switches are totally gone. Basically though, there was a set of switches down both sides of the instrument panel, that allowed the selection of any IRU, FD, ADR, nav to that side’s displays. ‘Both on’ was the warning that the EICAS generated if you selected the same source, but it was quite happy to let you do so if needed.

I think you can blame Southwest for the 737 panel layout. Boeing wanted to change, but they were too big a buyer, and they didn’t.....

 

[AviatorInsight]

I think you can blame Southwest for the 737 panel layout. Boeing wanted to change, but they were too big a buyer, and they didn’t.....

That's when I'll be happy that the FAA isn't giving in to them anymore and we can finally upgrade and join modern technology!

 

[Scarlett]

I’m not sure how these confidential pieces of info seem to leak but according to another site the same aircraft had issues the day before.

It’s Indonesia. There isn’t really the same concept of protected info.
As another example: the aircraft likely crashed just after 0630 local. Just over three and a half hours later the full pax manifest had been posted in one of my WhatsApp groups...

I have never flown with Lion, but have with their full service offshoot: Batik... the law of averages was on my side that day. And clearly my decision making was swayed by the fact that Batik J is generally the same price as Garuda Y.

 

[I love to travel]

I don't understand why the location technology isn't mandatory. Planes then can be found a lot quicker, better foresic evidence etc

 

[browski]

I’m not sure how these confidential pieces of info seem to leak but according to another site the same aircraft had issues the day before.

If I was one of the 2 pilots on the previous flight, I would be leaking my flight report. The guilt/anger would be too much.

 

[davidj]

Batik J

If only being in a premium softened the 'hard' landing.

 

[Saab34]

From the techs I’ve spoken to about this it’s the instant decent with no hint of recovery on the way down that is throwing a lot off. It dropped like a rock just instantaneously. The numbers available don’t really support a stall, nor a dive to gain speed as it was essentially vertical.

It’s like they have lost full access to the elevator, with the trim essentially pushing it into a dive.

Absolutely Bizarre.

 

[Quickstatus]

If I was one of the 2 pilots on the previous flight, I would be leaking my flight report. The guilt/anger would be too much.

No investigation will be properly conducted if everything is just leaked to the public.

However
Assuming a competent/nonpartisan investigation - leak to them
Assuming an incompetent/partisan investigation - leak to the press

 

[jb747]

If I was one of the 2 pilots on the previous flight, I would be leaking my flight report. The guilt/anger would be too much.

You have nothing to leak. There was a problem on your flight, which was dealt with. It was written up in the tech log. At that point there is nothing for you to do, or that you haven’t done. Finding and correcting faults is not your job.

Air speed indication problems are very likely just a furphy. The aircraft would have been totally, and easily, flyable. It simply does not explain what seems to have happened.

 

[browski]

You have nothing to leak. There was a problem on your flight, which was dealt with. It was written up in the tech log. At that point there is nothing for you to do, or that you haven’t done. Finding and correcting faults is not your job.

Air speed indication problems are very likely just a furphy. The aircraft would have been totally, and easily, flyable. It simply does not explain what seems to have happened.

You are overthinking it. The earlier pilots would leak the flight report just to demonstrate to their peers (and the families of the deceased) that they did indeed report the problems. It would be human nature.

 

[Must...Fly!]

You are overthinking it. The earlier pilots would leak the flight report just to demonstrate to their peers (and the families of the deceased) that they did indeed report the problems. It would be human nature.

It's been widely reported and accepted the plane had a technical issue the day before. What would releasing a tech log prove? That crew have no responsibility for what happened and I am sure that most know that...

 

[browski]

It's been widely reported and accepted the plane had a technical issue the day before. What would releasing a tech log prove? That crew have no responsibility for what happened and I am sure that most know that...

It was "widely reported and accepted the plane had a technical issue the day before".....because of the tech log leak.

 

[jb747]

You are overthinking it. The earlier pilots would leak the flight report just to demonstrate to their peers (and the families of the deceased) that they did indeed report the problems. It would be human nature.

You can’t leak what you don’t have. The tech log is left on the aircraft. The engineers remove coupons from it for record keeping. And as the log is generally left on the aircraft, it makes one wonder about the supposedly released versions.

I haven’t seen any heading data...that would be interesting. I’d be looking for what is called a spiral dive.

 

[Quickstatus]

I haven’t seen any heading data...that would be interesting. I’d be looking for what is called a spiral dive.

Could it happen on a daytime flight with a visual horizon?