Lionair 610 crash

[jb747]

Could it happen on a daytime flight with a visual horizon?

I wouldn’t have thought so, which is why it would be interesting. Day, VMC, the entire airspeed discussion should be moot.

 

[juddles]

Day 4 in a "known" location , in relatively shallow water, and still the coughpit recorder not found.

 

[AisleSeat]

Day 4 in a "known" location , in relatively shallow water, and still the coughpit recorder not found.

Just been found
SCMP News on Twitter

 

[Mogul]

Slightly OT but why do they immerse them in water when they find them ?

 

[kpc]

Slightly OT but why do they immerse them in water when they find them ?

Why is the FDR and CVR put into water again after a water crash?

 

[Quickstatus]

Its no so much put into water again but to prevent air (oxygen) from getting into the unit?

Salty water corrodes but salty water plus oxygen corrodes even faster

 

[davidj]

That crew

It wasn't the tech crew but ground crew, no? Carbon copy left on ground.

Lets not forget what is written in the log or 'signed off' means nothing. By Indo standards it could be a 'tick the box' exercise, and more likely considering some staff have already been suspended.

 

[jb747]

Lets not forget what is written in the log or 'signed off' means nothing. By Indo standards it could be a 'tick the box' exercise, and more likely considering some staff have already been suspended.

One of the reasons you look at the tech log before a flight is to see what has gone wrong, and how it was fixed, on previous flights. Many items are difficult to track down, and will recur a number of times before finally being resolved.

 

[davidj]

Day, VMC, the entire airspeed discussion should be moot.

Not really. There is no one reason for air disasters. False air speed indicators alone will not necessarily cause an accident, but along with other factors such as crew error, fatigue, weather, technical problems etc will likely contribute to an accident.

If airspeed indicators were working correctly, even with fatigue, weather etc, the risk of an accident diminishes.

 

[jb747]

Not really. There is no one reason for air disasters. False air speed indicators alone will not necessarily cause an accident, but along with other factors such as crew error, fatigue, weather, technical problems etc will likely contribute to an accident.

If airspeed indicators were working correctly, even with fatigue, weather etc, the risk of an accident diminishes.

David, I think I understand the various accident chains.

My point is that in daylight and VMC, the airspeed indication is something you can actually do perfectly well without.

 

[juddles]

David, I think I understand the various accident chains.

My point is that in daylight and VMC, the airspeed indication is something you can actually do perfectly well without.

jb747,I almost replied to david, but didn't feel the restraint.

 

[juddles]

My read on all this, just given the initial info, is that the pilot sufferred a fatal loss of basic control of the aircraft. Very scary in such a new plane. In my ignorance this would seem to be a flaw existent from delivery - given the almost new status of the airframe.So not somethind airline-oriented, I bet the entire fleet of 737-maxes will suffer a grounding from this....

 

[davidj]

David, I think I understand the various accident chains.

My point is that in daylight and VMC, the airspeed indication is something you can actually do perfectly well without.

And my point is it could be a contributing factor, not a "moot" point as you've suggested.

Everything would be investigated in this circumstance, and may have contributed to the accident.

 

[oz_mark]

And my point is it could be a contributing factor, not a "moot" point as you've suggested.

Everything would be investigated in this circumstance, and may have contributed to the accident.

Of course everything would be investigated, but the exact phrase was 'should be moot'. i would interpret that as meaning it may have been a cause, but shouldn't have been.

 

[davidj]

but shouldn't have been.

Nothing should have been the cause, and thats why nothing should be "moot"!

 

[theblank]

By Indo standards it could be a 'tick the box' exercise, and more likely considering some staff have already been suspended.

Your inference is not correct., None have been suspended for actual or suspected blame, its just standard procedure to allow investigations to be completed without impedance by anyone who could be involved.

Those suspended are the technical director and the engineer who approved the plane to fly that day.

This is normal course of action for any serious investigations, not just airline industry, and means absolutely nothing to indicating where the blame goes. They woudl have done the same in every other country.

 

[Saab34]

David, I think I understand the various accident chains.

My point is that in daylight and VMC, the airspeed indication is something you can actually do perfectly well without.

Which is what makes this accident so strange. It’s the point of dropping into the high energy dive that get me. No recovery attempt at all. They had serious speed in that dive, no even the slightest attempt to roll out, they would have most defiantly seen the water approaching considering the weather.

They clearly lost something at that point of drop.

Then you have the predicament of why factory fresh machines are falling apart. Lion Engineering most definitely in the spotlight for me.

 

[jb747]

Which is what makes this accident so strange. It’s the point of dropping into the high energy dive that get me.

Exactly. Reasonably stable one second, and a literal plunge the next. What caused that transition?

Then you have the predicament of why factory fresh machines are falling apart. Lion Engineering most definitely in the spotlight for me.

I doubt that they’re falling apart...but it starts to establish a blame Boeing scenario.

 

[Quickstatus]

The 737 Max is essentially a re engines 737 with some aerodynamic wing tip changes, new engines and stronger landing gear. Otherwise it’s the same airplane design as the old 737. These aircraft are robust.

 

[Saab34]

They were struggling to maintain level at 5000, it was very unstable and down like they were fighting the aircraft. Early signs that something had failed/fallen off and they were left with reduced components resulting then in whatever it was, completely failing/falling off the aircraft causing the instant drop. Whether the tail fell off, fuselage broke, horiz stab departed, well we need more information.

Structural Failure caused by damage that went unnoticed from a previous flight? Quite Probable.

As seen with the VA ATR Elevator failure. Things go unnoticed.