Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes in Ukraine

[Rox]

I lost a cousin on that flight. All I care about is that she didn't suffer when she died. The rest doesn't matter.

I'm so sorry.

 

[drron]

I think people are getting too caught up in the minutiae and not stepping back and looking at the big picture. The only fact we can verify with complete certainty is that a plane was shot down and 298 people died.

The rest is open for debate until the true facts are confirmed. Something which may never happen considering the region in question.

Before anyone else feels the need to jump in and defend their point of view or point out that they are right, spare a thought for the simple but undeniable fact that it really does not matter. Death is a part of life. As humans we desire knowledge and answers, comprehension and relevance.

I lost a cousin on that flight. All I care about is that she didn't suffer when she died. The rest doesn't matter.

Sorry to hear of your loss.
You bring the whole episode into perspective.
I sincerely hope I have not caused more pain by the links to this devasting occurrence.

 

[medhead]

Yet post #443 suggests that it isn't as simple as assigning liability to MH. There are too many variables involved before you can attribute blame and liability IMHO.

My post says zero about assigning liability. Assigning liability is completely irrelevant to my question. I also don't see how one post nullifies a number of other posts in the thread that seem to blame MH. Edit I present post #464 that clearly talks about liability.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

MH is strictly liable for damages. There are two tiers - ~113,000 SDR is automatic, and above that, they are assumed liable unless they can show they were not negligent. The duty is on MH to prove that.

 

[medhead]

My 2c is that the source of the missiles (? Russia) ought to have advised the recipients of the missile about its maximal range, what possible targets & their 'signatures' were and how to confirm that it could not be a civilian target.

Should Kiev close their airspace ? Well, no one issued any threat to knock out civilian airliners @ 33,000 feet ? Not even now (or anywhere else for that matter).

Should ICAO advise Russia & its proxy army that "hey buddies, we are up here !" Well, again no one was issuing any demand for total air clearance over East Ukraine - certainly not at 33,000 feet where jet fighters do not operate.

The persons who supplied the lethal weapons have the absolute onus to ensure they were to be used with the right intent i.e. targets. Without such clear instructions & training, it is too much to expect "combatants" of 4-6 weeks' experience to handle them.

It's all academic now obviously. The horse had clearly bolted.

I'm sorry but there are a number of posts that blame MH just because they flew a standard flight path in this thread. I want to know what those laying blame would have done to prevent this from happening.

Incident investigation is not academic either. It's about preventing reoccurrence.

 

[JohnK]

Knight's latest cartoon.

Monkeys have some intelligence.

 

[mannej]

My post says zero about assigning liability. Assigning liability is completely irrelevant to my question. I also don't see how one post nullifies a number of other posts in the thread that seem to blame MH.

Medhead, I agree with your post. I wasn't have a dig at it by any stretch of the imagination.
I was getting at the blame being placed on MH by the member that you have quoted, yet they are suggesting there are many questions involved that need to be answered.

 

[boomy]

I met tonight with friends of my parents who came for the Aids convention. They were also flying from Europe to Asia (above Ukraine) at about the same time as flight MH17. I'm not a religious person so it just amaze me sometimes how much our lives are controlled purely by chance.

 

[Alanslegal]

I have a sneaking suspicion that at least one of the participants in this discussion has expertise in the distasteful field of ambulance chasing...

Why is it a distasteful field? The victim/s is entitled to know their legal position, rights and remedies as soon as possible. Knowledge can be very powerful. Then flip the coin over, there is nothing stopping the 'wrong-doer' from approaching the victim first, making an offer of X to settle the matter, signing away their right to commence future proceedings, and entering into confidential agreements that nobody knows about. Sadly, to a victim, there may never be a right time to talk to them but if they were provided with some legal advice, it may help.

 

[Flying mermaid]

I lost a cousin on that flight. All I care about is that she didn't suffer when she died. The rest doesn't matter.

I am sorry to hear of your loss.

 

[casanovawa]

Haven't looked at this thread for a bit, but my 20 cents worth..

Condolences to anyone who lost or knew people who have lost...

It seems pretty clear to me that Russian backed or supported rebels committed this crime and it should be investigated as much as possible to find the chain of commend who carried it out, even if you can't lock up the people now who did it, who knows (as per the Serbian criminals now being tried in The Hague or the Libyan agents) that in future the Russians might have a change of government and hand them over, or be compelled to by changed circumstances... For me personally the trials in The Hague are dragged out to long and a certain amount of these people should just be stood up against a wall but that maybe isn't PC...

If the Russian backed separatists and the Russians deliberately act to destroy evidence and hinder the investigation, while not being a legal expert, this to me should show strong guilt in the matter and if the US or any other countries have frozen assets of Russia or individuals pay the compensation out of that to the families... Generously, as in all of it... I think MH has little to answer for in this instance...

About countries not following the rules of law if it doesn't suit them or they disagree, it certainly helps to have the position of the winner, but wasn't there issues with the Nuremburg Trials in that some if not all of the charges they brought against the naz_s were not part of international law when the crimes were being committed, they were drawn up by the victors and then imposed on the losers??? I whole heartedly agree with that as I like to see B********s get there come uppance but it might be hard to enforce if you don't have as overwhelming a victory as the allies had, but anyway i think the Serbs and others have been tried by the UN even if they didn't agree with the laws of conflict that they broke with their massacres...

I wouldn't give up vodka, there are canadian, polish and all sorts of brands and makers of vodka so will more happily drink those, but I would support everything that could be done turn the screws on the scumbags and their Russian supporters.... What a pity that Ukraine didn't keep several hydrogen bombs in their coughnal, I think I would've with neighbours like Russia...

 

[legroom]

I'm sorry but there are a number of posts that blame MH just because they flew a standard flight path in this thread. I want to know what those laying blame would have done to prevent this from happening.

Incident investigation is not academic either. It's about preventing reoccurrence.

In a roundabout way, my post by ignoring the issue of blaming MH was a subtle dig against those who sought to question / blame MH.

By academic I meant none of the 298 people had a chance to have any say in the matter. Prevention, certainly true in all crimes and accidents !

 

[JohnK]

I met tonight with friends of my parents who came for the Aids convention. They were also flying from Europe to Asia (above Ukraine) at about the same time as flight MH17. I'm not a religious person so it just amaze me sometimes how much our lives are controlled purely by chance.

I do not believe in chance or coincidence as some like to call it. Some things happen for a reason.

 

[burmans]

I do not believe in chance or coincidence as some like to call it. Some things happen for a reason.

If you dont believe in chance or coincidence then surely all things happen for a reason? If only some happen for a reason then by extension some don't.

 

[jimg1111]

It's not a case of blaming MH. It is a case of asking what might have prevented this, or could this have been prevented?

The Bolt Report today seemed to go to the extreme of suggesting that if the USA had a tougher foreign policy, hadn't let the situation in Crimea escalate, then the flight wouldn't have been shot down. I struggle with that concept. But I don't struggle overall with the concept of asking how this might have been avoided.

Pretty standard Bolt line on geo-politics. But, it might be thought of as ironic - the USA was indeed tough in their foreign policy when they were siding with Iraq & Sadaam back in the late 80s, maintaining a blockade on the Iranians in the Gulf which led directly to the downing of IR655. The Vincennes destroyer was known as 'robocruiser' by fellow sailors for its toughness. Khomeini - it is now asserted - put the Libyans up to Lockerbie later in the same year as retaliation. Tough all round. Tough on the civilian passengers then, and now.

 

[JohnK]

If you dont believe in chance or coincidence then surely all things happen for a reason? If only some happen for a reason then by extension some don't.

That's OK too. You are quite entitled to have that opinion.

By the way we have no idea what's going on. Some like to think so but we don't have a clue.

And it's quite OK too if you don't want to believe that God created us. After all mankind is above God because we can create life and alter life through people's DNA but there is now way God could have done the same thing.

And no I don't need to prove to you God exists. Science is doing a great job all on it's own. You don't think all those complex DNA strands evolved randomly do you? And I hope you dont think that the perfection of the organs in your body also evolved randomly. Do you?

 

[opusman]

I think this thread is going a little off-topic...

 

[drron]

A good piece of detective work by a Flyertalker getting images of the number plates from the videos of the transporters and being able to tie those to the Russian defence forces-
FlyerTalk Forums - View Single Post - Malaysia Airlines MH 17 crash in Ukraine (17 July 2014 - PLEASE READ WIKI, FAQ)

 

[SeatBackForward]

A good piece of detective work by a Flyertalker getting images of the number plates from the videos of the transporters and being able to tie those to the Russian defence forces-
FlyerTalk Forums - View Single Post - Malaysia Airlines MH 17 crash in Ukraine (17 July 2014 - PLEASE READ WIKI, FAQ)

That's pretty incriminating one way or another.

 

[casanovawa]

Doh, they didn't even remember what the amateurs driving off from the petrol stations know, first of all do the ol' number plate switcheroonies....

Its not exactly champagne covert ops from the russkie backed nutbags in Ukraine at the moment is it...

Just found out this morning that one of the guys in the crash (and his wife) worked at my dept in WA although I don't think I had ever met him...