Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes in Ukraine

[feezable]

I lost a cousin on that flight. All I care about is that she didn't suffer when she died. The rest doesn't matter.

I can't stop thinking about this knightman. I hope your cousin, and all the others on board, did not suffer.

 

[artemis]

What did they get for Lockerbie ?

I don't know what Pan Am paid out... but was prosecuted for the lax baggage handling.

Gaddafi admitted responsibility and paid out $2.2billion (originally offering $2.7billion which was $10million per family). I imagine lawyers took a rather large cut...

Wonder what will happen here.

Lockerbie was such a defining moment of my childhood in terms of horror news stories.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Lockerbie was such a defining moment of my childhood in terms of horror news stories.

Same, I was living in Scotland at the time. It was a horrible Christmas.
Subsequently through my MIMMS training I met a few of the personnel involved in the aftermath and the experiences of recovery of remains in a large area sounds eerily similar to that now in the Ukraine albeit that Lockerbie was a safe, civilian area.

 

[drron]

Well if you are in to conspiracy theories Russian TV has come up with a beauty-MH17 was actually MH370 flown to Amsterdam from Diego Garcia and packed with explosives by the CIA-
Russia Conspiracy Theories Trap Putin Malaysia Airlines MH17 | New Republic

Also due to the diversion of flights from Eastern Ukraine the skies over the neighbouring part of Russia are getting a little Too crowded-
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/6-airliners-nearly-collide-in-south-russia/503779.html

 

[vetrade]

As soon as Netherlands, Malaysia, Australia etc. get their citizens' bodies back they will start winding back the rhetoric against Putin/Russia. The reality is that there will be no further political mileage around "strong leadership" to be gained once the bodies are buried and the memorial services held. This is not to say that any leader is exploiting the abhorrence of this attack (least of all Tony Abbott whose response I think was first class in being the first to call a spade a spade when others were hedging their response) - rather each will be aware that once they have achieved dignity for the dead and comfort for their families there is very little else of practical significance that can be achieved. It is also a matter of national cohesion and empathy that citizens can see that their country stood up for what is right on their behalf.

Whatever findings may be eventually made against Putin or the separatists will have no meaningful impact on them because they expect the West's criticism and will just shrug it off. China will side with them and it will be business as usual. These people will never admit to any wrongdoing and they are immune to feelings of guilt or shame. Pressure could only be applied to Putin if Europe was to buy it's oil and gas elsewhere - the financial damage that would do to the Russian economy would then create internal tensions for him from within. But then we come back to the reality that Europe has no access to an adequate alternative source of those commodities so they will always stop short of pushing Putin so far that he shuts off supply.

Net result is that the Ukraine / Russian conflict will probably drag on and on (maybe/probably for years). If they clear eastern Ukraine of rebels they will still have a far bigger task in Crimea ahead of them. If Ukraine is stupid enough to target positions across the border on Russian soil Putin will claim Russia's sovereignty has been breached and use that as an excuse for an all-out assault on Ukraine, in which case he will win. Meanwhile other countries will try their hardest not to get involved.

 

[deluxeflyer]

My condolences, knightman7.

When I first saw the MH17 crew list, I thought I recognised the name of the IFS, but couldn't be sure.
On Sunday, he was mentioned in one of the papers with an accompanying photograph.
I realised then he was the same IFS on a SYD-KUL flight I was on 2 years ago.
It was a memorable then because there were only us 2 pax in F.
It was probably one of my most enjoyable flights:
the crew were warm, engaging and down to earth, led by this IFS.
It is even more memorable now.
RIP, Encik Ghafar.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Just turned on Lateline on the ABC and heard the worst ever so called expert discussing the decision by MH to fly over Ukraine. Big guy with an Irish accent.
This guy was IMO a total idiot who referred to legacy carriers inc SQ,LH and BA who according to him had the intelligence not to fly over there and seemed to imply that MH was a low cost carrier.
The entire charade was topped off by Emma Alberici stating that QF had decided not to fly over Ukraine.
WTF the ABC have totally lost the plot

 

[Bundy Bear]

Very sad to read that another flight has been shot down. I never expected ever to see major airlines like what happened with Korean Airlines 007 and Iran Air IR655 didn't think we would ever get a repeat. Flying at 33,000 feet I thought that you would be safe from any rocket launchers.
MH17 was a flight that many Australians had taken to travel to Australia, even I have taken MH17 to return to Australia, so it is a shock that a flight you had previously taken had been shot down.

I liked Princess Fionas post which included a link to the Australian newspaper.

Also with all the news sites, Facebook and Linkedin you get to read a lot of the stories about regular people on MH17, it is amazing the amount of information available online, MH even released the cargo manifest, which was a bit of a surprise, I guess they want to prove to the world they weren't hiding anything.

I guess you never know when your time is up.

Money will never replace the lives that were lost.

 

[straitman]

This article link just arrived by email and has a couple of items that I have not otherwise read.

A couple of the comments at the bottom also make interesting reading especially the one "You fail to mention the change in direction which was ordered by Ukrainian air control, a change in direction which took the plane directly over the rebel held areas. Had the plane continued on its original course it would have by passed the rebel held areas."

MH17 Flight Route Approved By Eurocontrol, Safe Per ICAO, IATA

 

[juddles]

straightman, thanks for the link - good to see more info supporting the justifiability of MH route.


But the person that commented about the alleged change in flightpath also denies that the plane was shot down - he reckons it was an onboard bomb as it ¨had to be bigger¨, I just did a quick google search and it appears that the consensus is that it was a missile from the ¨BUK¨family (??) which appear to have a 70kg warhead. I guess it would be possible to get a bigger bomb onto a plane, but I severely doubt it - but each to their own beliefs

 

[drron]

John Kerry confirming that the US has satellite imagery of the launcher at the moment of firing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78r1qAHUVwY

 

[MEL_Traveller]

If these reports are true, MH routed a flight over Syria on Sunday, which seems to be an unusual course of action (no other transcontinental flight was observed flying over Syria)

MH's response to the routing of MH4 over Syria appears to be 'it was approved by ICAO'

UPDATE 2-Malaysia Airlines flight over Syria reflects war zone challenge | Reuters

 

[drron]

The bodies of MH17 pax are now on their way first by train and then by Dutch Hercules to AMS.
Black boxes have just been handed over to the Malaysians.
https://twitter.com/fergalkeane47?o....html&tw_i=490423084277829632&tw_p=tweetembed

https://twitter.com/maxseddon

 

[OATEK]

The bodies of MH17 pax are now on their way first by train and then by Dutch Hercules to AMS.
Black boxes have just been handed over to the Malaysians.
https://twitter.com/fergalkeane47?o....html&tw_i=490423084277829632&tw_p=tweetembed

https://twitter.com/maxseddon

That seems like real progress at last.

 

[Major]

At last a proper course of action. Next, a full independent and safe investigation

 

[serfty]

At last a proper course of action. Next, a full independent and safe investigation

I think it took Putin a few days to work out how the cards were stacking up ...

 

[medhead]

I haven't really followed outside this thread. Thanks to drron for all the detailed info. SWMBO just told me there was some Dutch guy who was booked on both mh370 and mh17 but cancelled at the last minute.

 

[browski]

But the person that commented about the alleged change in flightpath also denies that the plane was shot down - he reckons it was an onboard bomb as it ¨had to be bigger¨

There is currently no evidence to confirm that MH17 was hit by a missile; but that evidence is rapidly trying to be established by interested parties. If we knew for certain that it was a missile strike then we really don't need the black boxes............but the seasoned investigators know that what is spurted by media and political players may not actually be the truth.

You can be sure that the most senior investigators fully appreciate the gravity of the situation if it is shown that MH17 was not hit by a missile; just pause for a few moments to think of the panic and ramifications of that outcome..............
Let's hope it was indeed a missile strike, but keep an open mind just in case it was not.

 

[medhead]

There is currently no evidence to confirm that MH17 was hit by a missile; but that evidence is rapidly trying to be established by interested parties. If we knew for certain that it was a missile strike then we really don't need the black boxes............but the seasoned investigators know that what is spurted by media and political players may not actually be the truth.

You can be sure that the most senior investigators fully appreciate the gravity of the situation if it is shown that MH17 was not hit by a missile; just pause for a few moments to think of the panic and ramifications of that outcome..............
Let's hope it was indeed a missile strike, but keep an open mind just in case it was not.

No evidence? What besides confirmed phone call intercepts of people saying they shot down an aircraft in the same area. Satellite imagery of the missile being fired. Lack of another aircraft wreck in the area. Sure nothing confirms the fired missile actually hit MH17. But I don't think we can say there is no evidence.

 

[NM]

I think it took Putin a few days to work out how the cards were stacking up ...

Or a few days to review the data from the recorders, and either determine there is nothing incriminating or to modify as required . Would be interesting to know if they have been opened before being handed over. However, I doubt there is much they can tell that is not already known - just confirming the already known facts. But great that the real experts can now review the data and hopefully they can learn something from it.