Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes in Ukraine

[marki]

I hope this doesn't seem a grisly question. What would have actually happened to the poor souls on board - you mean that the decompression was so quick that unconsciousness or death would be instantaneous? I certainly hope for their sakes they would not know what hit them. A shocking shocking act

This is a question in the domain of aviation Medicine and there have been discussion regarding Time of useful consciousness and at 35 thousand feet it is 30-60 seconds but there are heaps of other factors affecting the length of TUC .....


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[medhead]

This instrumentation is probably much cheaper than the cost of a high altitude SAM.

Is this relevant? Probably not because all it would achieve is to scare the pilots just before they died.

I've heard about an automatic defensive system. Not just an alarm in the coughpit. This is apparently installed on El Al aircraft.

In terms of cost my comments about cheap and expensive are made in terms of the user. Missiles are cheap for the military. Systems that would be used once in 10000 flights are expensive for an airline that doesn't spend a few dollars a flight on engine monitoring.

 

[medhead]

I think that's a subject it's best not to delve too deeply into...

Indeed. One of my children has been asking about this question and we've just said they don't know what's happening. She also had another question that could only be answered with a lie.

 

[drron]

A tribute to the passengers from groundstaff in AMS.The English translation is below the Dutch.Make sure you have enough tissues-
www.telegraaf.nl/vrouw/actueel/22883087/__Stewardess_Renuka_checkte_passagiers_in__.html - Translator

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I hope this doesn't seem a grisly question. What would have actually happened to the poor souls on board - you mean that the decompression was so quick that unconsciousness or death would be instantaneous? I certainly hope for their sakes they would not know what hit them. A shocking shocking act

I think that's a subject it's best not to delve too deeply into...

I agree with jb747 - but have to admit I was somewhat disgusted by the Dutch Foreign minister's words at the United nations... they seem truly inappropriate, although I haven't seen the whole speech in context. The potential offending words are within the following article: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...fter-plane-blast/story-fni0fit3-1226997887039

 

[markis10]

I agree with jb747 - but have to admit I was somewhat disgusted by the Dutch Foreign minister's words at the United nations... they seem truly inappropriate, although I haven't seen the whole speech in context. The potential offending words are within the following article: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...fter-plane-blast/story-fni0fit3-1226997887039

I read the speech in context as part of another article, the key part being we will never know. It was full of empathy, is that what you were disgusted with?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I read the speech in context as part of another article, the key part being we will never know. It was full of empathy, is that what you were disgusted with?

It was the notion that far from it being quick, almost instantaneous, that passengers may have had terrifying last seconds or minutes of their lives.

Realisation of what was happening, and with sufficient time to 'clasp their children to their hearts' and 'say a final wordless goodbye'. Real suffering.

I think it was completely unnecessary.

 

[UP4014]

It was the notion that far from it being quick, almost instantaneous, that passengers may have had terrifying last seconds or minutes of their lives.

Realisation of what was happening, and with sufficient time to 'clasp their children to their hearts' and 'say a final wordless goodbye'. Real suffering.

I think it was completely unnecessary.

I think it wouldn't have been instantaneous in the literal sense of the word, but short none the less.

It needs to be said in it's raw form without sugar coating, people need to understand what truly went on as confronting as it is.

Like New York on 911, have heard people say the footage should not be shown, but I disagree, people need a blunt reminder to jolt them into what goes on in the real world.

Matt

 

[markis10]

It was the notion that far from it being quick, almost instantaneous, that passengers may have had terrifying last seconds or minutes of their lives.

Realisation of what was happening, and with sufficient time to 'clasp their children to their hearts' and 'say a final wordless goodbye'. Real suffering.

I think it was completely unnecessary.

Its possible it was not instantaneous for everyone, so the scenario although unpleasant is not one that should be brushed aside. Hopefully that's not the case but we will never know, unlike the Columbia disaster where all the occupants wore telemetry, and the occupants were conscious for a few seconds after decompression following crew module separation.

 

[medhead]

The Dutch guy was simply offering empathy by stating precisely what the families are thinking and wondering about. As alluded to above, even my 10 year child has had those thoughts.

His words possibly shocked the Russian ambassador into agreeing to the security council resolution. Given their suggested role it is amazing they didn't veto it. They also possibly shocked Putin into the correct response. I cannot see a negative to those comments

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The Dutch guy was simply offering empathy by stating precisely what the families are thinking and wondering about. As alluded to above, even my 10 year child has had those thoughts.

His words possibly shocked the Russian ambassador into agreeing to the security council resolution. Given their suggested role it is amazing they didn't veto it. They also possibly shocked Putin into the correct response. I cannot see a negative to those comments

Hes says he doesn't know. Why not wait until he does know before starting to make it worse for relatives.

The choice between accepting experts (quick and instant) vs some prolonged agony, suffering and terror? I think I'd rather go for the experts until such time as forensics show otherwise.

The relatives will also be asking the question why MH flew over the area. And could the agony and suffering have been totally prevented had MH taken a route avoiding Ukraine. This seems more relevant following MH over Syria. Seems MH may not even be giving a second thought to flight paths.

The words of the Dutch ambassoador didn't shock Russia into agreeing to the resolution. it was drafted with Russian input so that Russia wouldn't veto it.

 

[burmans]

It was the notion that far from it being quick, almost instantaneous, that passengers may have had terrifying last seconds or minutes of their lives.

Realisation of what was happening, and with sufficient time to 'clasp their children to their hearts' and 'say a final wordless goodbye'. Real suffering.

I think it was completely unnecessary.

So you mean it was the speculation it may not have been immediate that rankles? Just like people are doing here, what rank hypocrisy!

 

[Princess Fiona]

Its possible it was not instantaneous for everyone, so the scenario although unpleasant is not one that should be brushed aside. Hopefully that's not the case but we will never know, unlike the Columbia disaster where all the occupants wore telemetry, and the occupants were conscious for a few seconds after decompression following crew module separation.

Some of the reports from Lockerbie indicate this too.

 

[vetrade]

I'm finding the almost ghoulish fascination with the last moments of these people's lives quite unedifying.

 

[Clivem]

I am glad Australia has a seat at the UN Security Council as without it we would have been quite uninfluential in pushing for action/resolution.

Tony Abbott did say when he was in Opposition that he opposed to Labor spending $25M for that UNSC seat bid .... at least we have now made use of it.

I'm normally quite 'apolitical' by I think Julie Bishop handled this in an exemplary fashion at the UN earlier this week.

 

[medhead]

Hes says he doesn't know. Why not wait until he does know before starting to make it worse for relatives.

The choice between accepting experts (quick and instant) vs some prolonged agony, suffering and terror? I think I'd rather go for the experts until such time as forensics show otherwise.

The relatives will also be asking the question why MH flew over the area. And could the agony and suffering have been totally prevented had MH taken a route avoiding Ukraine. This seems more relevant following MH over Syria. Seems MH may not even be giving a second thought to flight paths.

The words of the Dutch ambassoador didn't shock Russia into agreeing to the resolution. it was drafted with Russian input so that Russia wouldn't veto it.

He said we'll never know. It was an empathetic expression of precisely what all the families were thinking. That is exactly what I wrote in my previous post. To restate my opinion it was an entirely appropriate expression for empathy for the families. What really happened is completely irrelevant. I reject your suggestion that any person was not moved by such an expression of human grief and uncertainty about this accident.

I see you continuing this rubbish about asking question. You can stop sprouting that at me. I completely disagree with your attempts to blame MH who are a victim of this attack.

 

[medhead]

I'm normally quite 'apolitical' by I think Julie Bishop handled this in an exemplary fashion at the UN earlier this week.

The irony that she would never have been able to handle it so well if she had got her earlier wishes is interesting.

 

[UP4014]

I'm normally quite 'apolitical' by I think Julie Bishop handled this in an exemplary fashion at the UN earlier this week.

After changing the words, removing "shot down".

I think if she had left it it would have gotten through, can you imagine the pariah state of Russia had they vetoed. I would have liked to see their bluff called on this one. Should have pushed harder.

Matt

 

[burmans]

After changing the words, removing "shot down".

I think if she had left it it would have gotten through, can you imagine the pariah state of Russia had they vetoed. I would have liked to see their bluff called on this one. Should have pushed harder.

Matt

I'm in the court of opinion that they actually did really well to get this through as easily and fast as they did. There are many. many instances of quite innocuous resolutions being rejected by the UN over much less inflammatory wording than that and frankly what's the point, the main aim here was to quickly get access to the site, the victims and the flight recorder, not press some anti-Russian rhetoric. That may play well at home but with a stranglehold on European power Russia are in a stronger position at the UN than we credit.

So all credit to Julie Bishop but yes, ironic that if they had their way we would never had had the chance.

 

[Jack_OC]

I'm finding the almost ghoulish fascination with the last moments of these people's lives quite unedifying.

Fair point. I deleted my last post on the subject, as it's probably not something that needs to be discussed.