Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes in Ukraine

[under the radar]

We live in an extremely sad place.

Evil outweighs good. This world is a creepy place ruled by terrorists, criminals and the corrupt with many of them elected.

Justice? Putting someone in jail is not justice.

And sadly the 'blame games'/'cover ups' will continue...some peoples/groups agendas/egos is larger than those of the collective human race :evil:. PEACE is just a word in the dictionary.. holds no meaning to some on this earth.

sadly, people will continue to MURDER people, behind the 'guise' of 'defense'/their 'rights'/whatever 'excuse' they choose to use....human life has become a 'disposable commodity'...ironically, murder has become 'a way of life'

and what really p***es me off, some of the 'self absorbed'/tacky posts on various 'social media' sites

 

[Alanslegal]

Many flights did fly over Ukraine until today, around 300 according to The Age. This is consistent with flights I have taken, for Eg. This photo I took on an Eva Air flight between BKK - VIE on 10 Mar shows it flew very near to where MH appears to have been shot down. so it is terribly unlucky and unfortunate for this to happen. I flew SQ333 a few weeks after on the return. I will have to find the map photo later to see what sq got upto.

 

[serfty]

Image from FlightRadar24 at the time of the incident:

 

[whatmeworry]

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men and Barack Obama do nothing"

I understand that intercepts indicate Russian separatists shot down the plane.................

The real problem here is that Putin was so confident that Obama was a "cough" that he invaded Ukraine under the improbable guise of protecting Russian citizens. His confidence was well founded because Obama's limp-wristed response was to cancel a few visas and freeze a few bank accounts which just proved he didn't have the testes for the job. As if Putin cared about "diplomacy"! The loss of this plane can, and should only be, sheeted back to Putin, the macho aggressor, who put in train all the events which lead to it being shot down.

The problem for the civilised parts of the world (like us) is that the world no longer has an effective policeman that belligerent types take seriously, and I fear that we will see an increase of such incidents as long as that situation prevails.

I said it a long time ago, but they should fast tracked Ukraine's NATO membership long ago.

 

[Himeno]

I was a bit baffled by the last line. I don't want to be crass, but I think it's pretty clear that not all of their OW partners made the same decision. Anyway, this confirmation makes me question the logic of the other airlines a bit more. Surely they all had the same information?

Not at all. Qantas made that choice on their own with no more info then other airlines had. It's the same as when QF didn't fly while Australia was impacted by volcanic ash from South America a few years ago while VA did.

Other airlines will maintain the status quo until such time as some authority tells them otherwise. In the absence of a NOTAM or similar from Ukraine, IATA, ICAO etc, MH, SQ, AI etc would have no reason not to fly there.

 

[drron]

The BBC have screen shots of tweets by the rebels re the shooting down of MH17 which they had believed was an Ukrainian transport.
BBC News - As it happened: Malaysian plane crash in Ukraine

It is in the video on this page.

 

[Himeno]

At least Malaysia appears to have learnt from the mess at the start of the MH370 disappearance. They are giving timezones in their statements.

 

[drron]

Not at all. Qantas made that choice on their own with no more info then other airlines had. It's the same as when QF didn't fly while Australia was impacted by volcanic ash from South America a few years ago while VA did.

Other airlines will maintain the status quo until such time as some authority tells them otherwise. In the absence of a NOTAM or similar from Ukraine, IATA, ICAO etc, MH, SQ, AI etc would have no reason not to fly there.

I think QF are just being cute.Look at the map.The only part of crimea they would have overflown was the Crimea a fair distance from the crash site and the area that had been restricted.
Great Circle Mapper

 

[geordieladinoz]

Shocking news indeed - RIP MH17!

On my recent EK36 NCL-DXB I recall how nonchalant I was at seeing on the flight path how close Baghdad was.

Having spent a few weeks in Europe and seeing a lot more media on the subject, there are still lots of issues in that part of the world yet as with this current situation airlines are still able to fly through and will do.

I haven't looked at a map of the Middle East recently but airlines such as EK, EY and QR would surely see significant diversions to avoid every possible 'dangerous area' that exists in the world at this current time. Who knows what any of these nut jobs capabilities are at any one time?

 

[burmans]

I think there are serious questions which need to be asked, including the flow of information (what was known, how it was shared, and how quickly).

It has nothing to do with being 'expert' - it is common sense to ask those sorts of questions. There are plenty of questions that can be raised now... in advance, about all sorts of safety aspects. Unfortunately, it's often not until we have had an accident that some in authority want to consider the matter. (Look at something as simple as gate-to-gate IFE. Potential major safety issues, but until we have a crash where people don't hear 'brace' probably no one is going to do anything to stop it.)

Questions I have no problem with, its the natural and right thing to question, my disagreement would be with those that proclaim they not only have the answers but they somehow had the knowledge retrospectively.

 

[burmans]

WMD is not a good example. They knew the answer that was desired in that case. In this case, they wouldn't have had the required answer.

Well I was being tongue in cheek when I said that, nevertheless I am far from being as convinced that America's knowldege of everything that happens everywhere is as pervasive as some suggest, there is too much evidence of fallibility in their security apparatus to suggest its perfect. And as noted, the fact they may have it doesnt mean they will share it. In this particular case, yes I think they have a very good idea what happened but don't subscribe to the view they know all or its always correct. The fact they have so many analysts suggests that frequently what they have is interpreted information and as soon as you bring humans into the equation you get the risk of human error.

 

[under the radar]

....hasn't taken long for the sharks to circle (lawyers)... spruiking their 'wares' on TV ...'looking for someone to sue..MAS, ICAO'???...HOW ABOUT SUEING THOSE WHO CONTINUE TO MANUFACTURE/UTILIZE THE WEAPONS THAT KILL THE REST OF US

 

[Flying mermaid]

Not at all. Qantas made that choice on their own with no more info then other airlines had. It's the same as when QF didn't fly while Australia was impacted by volcanic ash from South America a few years ago while VA did.

Other airlines will maintain the status quo until such time as some authority tells them otherwise. In the absence of a NOTAM or similar from Ukraine, IATA, ICAO etc, MH, SQ, AI etc would have no reason not to fly there.

Which is why I have always liked Qantas - they always err on the side of caution - which suits a timid person like me....

Such a tragedy - heart goes out to all affected

 

[MH_fan]

I really feel sorry for MAS. They've had very bad luck and it really is unfair on them that they should suffer as a result of this incident, which really is no fault of theirs. I will continue to support them. It must be so awful for the crew, who have lost more friends on MH17 after the losses from MH370. I really really hope that passengers are mindful and nice to the crew rather than complain about the tiniest problem.

 

[Jack_OC]

Not at all. Qantas made that choice on their own with no more info then other airlines had. It's the same as when QF didn't fly while Australia was impacted by volcanic ash from South America a few years ago while VA did.

Other airlines will maintain the status quo until such time as some authority tells them otherwise. In the absence of a NOTAM or similar from Ukraine, IATA, ICAO etc, MH, SQ, AI etc would have no reason not to fly there.

I think QF are just being cute.Look at the map.The only part of crimea they would have overflown was the Crimea a fair distance from the crash site and the area that had been restricted.
Great Circle Mapper

Yes, after my original posting of the QF quote, Markis clarified that QF only made a change because their route (LHR-DXB) took them over the Crimea, where airspace was restricted. That doesn't seem to have applied to routes between Europe and SE Asia, so there was no reason for airlines flying those routes to make any changes (before today). So I agree, it does seem like QF are being a bit "cute" and implying that they have been more cautious than others, when in reality they just had a different situation to deal with.

 

[burmans]

Yes, after my original posting of the QF quote, Markis clarified that QF only made a change because their route (LHR-DXB) took them over the Crimea, where airspace was restricted. That doesn't seem to have applied to routes between Europe and SE Asia, so there was no reason for airlines flying those routes to make any changes (before today). So I agree, it does seem like QF are being a bit "cute" and implying that they have been more cautious than others, when in reality they just had a different situation to deal with.

Its just risk mitigation exercise for QF I feel, am not really sure they spent a lot of time analysisng how people might interpret their annpuncement.

 

[VA777]

Shocked as I heard the news this morning. RIP to all on the flight.

With the suggestions that the "Black Boxes" will go to Russia I wonder how they will respond given their involvement in KA007 and retaining the boxes for years restricting the effectiveness of the investigations for years.

 

[gpl007]

Horribly tragic.

In the fullness of time I hope that we find what really has happened. If Russia is found to have supplied the weapon, then I hope the world collectively has the gumption to take them to task. Not that it will bring back any of the people who have lost their lives - for nothing.

 

[markis10]

Yes, after my original posting of the QF quote, Markis clarified that QF only made a change because their route (LHR-DXB) took them over the Crimea, where airspace was restricted. That doesn't seem to have applied to routes between Europe and SE Asia, so there was no reason for airlines flying those routes to make any changes (before today). So I agree, it does seem like QF are being a bit "cute" and implying that they have been more cautious than others, when in reality they just had a different situation to deal with.

The only formal QF statement actually mentions they are well south:

No Qantas flight paths track across the Ukraine. Our London to Dubai services fly approximately 400 nautical miles south of this region.

Our deepest sympathies are with the families of all onboard MH17 and with everyone at Malaysian Airlines.

Additional information on this incident is available from Malaysian Airlines Home | Malaysia Airlines

 

[UP4014]

To be fair though, it does seem like QF was in the minority. According to the BBC, all of the following airlines were flying through the same airspace but have now stopped doing so: Alitalia, Lufthansa, Air France, British Airways, Aeroflot and Turkish Airlines. And we also know that SQ and AI were flying through the same area at the time when the incident occurred, plus it has been reported here that KLM used the same route. So I think it’s fair to say that most major airlines that have relevant routes thought it was ok to fly through this airspace. Again, I agree that “everyone else is doing it so why can’t we” isn’t a great excuse, but this does suggest that across the industry, not many people thought there was a risk of something like this happening. And I know in my field, to establish that someone is negligent, you need to show that most other people in a similar situation would not have taken the same action.

As you say yourself, just because another does it doesn't mean everyone should do it.

I would suggest the industry takes more of this sort of risk than prudent, and more than its passengers are aware. I would expect many think a full service carrier from a western country doesn't take this risk (and my opinion is it shouldn't, that's why we pay more for a smarter airline)

Matt