NBN Discussion

[drsmithy]

Some users will probably NEED high speed, not all, so why should everyone pay for a capability we all don't need, it's a bit like putting a 6 lane freeway in to replace every street.

Er, yeah, if a) trends indicated everyone would be looking for a "6 lane highway" in a decade or so and b) putting in a "6 lane highway" only cost marginally more than just the normal street.

We don't have phone lines to every house in Australia, and now a lot of them are not in use anyway!

I imagine the houses without easy access to a phone line represent a vanishingly small demographic.

Using H264 you can transmit 1080p resolution video at 30 frames per second and it takes 1mbps or 1/100th of the bandwidth the coalition is offering through FTTN.

If you're happy with 1Mb/s 1080p, I propose it might be time to get your eyes checked.

 

[straitman]

Er, yeah, if a) trends indicated everyone would be looking for a "6 lane highway" in a decade or so and b) putting in a "6 lane highway" only cost marginally more than just the normal street.

Let's be real, it does cost a lot more though not 6 times as much.

I imagine the houses without easy access to a phone line represent a vanishingly small demographic.

I don't.

I know of many people who have ditched their land lines.

If you're happy with 1Mb/s 1080p, I propose it might be time to get your eyes checked.

I'll leave that for others to comment on.

 

[serfty]

Er, yeah, if a) trends indicated everyone would be looking for a "6 lane highway" in a decade or so and b) putting in a "6 lane highway" only cost marginally more than just the normal street....

Lets assume I have a one lane highway with my ADSL running at 7mbs.

So a six lane hihway would be 43Mbs - that's still less than ½ the capacity of VDSL2 using existing copper with FTTN.

 

[markis10]

If you're happy with 1Mb/s 1080p, I propose it might be time to get your eyes checked.

I am happy with my broadcast HD TV, which is not up to that spec, in the context of my reply re videoconferencing where the OP mentioned facial recognition, no issues at all, and again it's using 1% of the bandwidth .

Interesting to see the difference between an Academics view:

''There is nothing coming through the pipeline that I am aware of that is saying we really need everyone to have more bandwidth in their home than is offered by solutions such as fibre-to-the-node,'' Edwards says.

and a commercial lobbiests view :

''The key question is not what users can do, but what they will be able to do in the future. Based on current trends as published by the Bureau of Statistics, many households will find, by about 2017 or 2018, that a [node] network will not be adequate for their needs. The Coalition's proposed network will be obsolete by the time the rollout is finished.''

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...e-challenge-20130814-2rwva.html#ixzz2byj7jqhc

 

[drsmithy]

Let's be real, it does cost a lot more though not 6 times as much.

Not really. Especially not in the context of the capabilities delivered, which are _vastly_ more than the analagous "6 lane highway".

I don't.

I know of many people who have ditched their land lines.

Whoa there.

The measure wasn't "ditched a landline", it was "connected to a landline".

Further, I'd be fairly willing to bet a large chunk of people "without landlines" are still actually using the physical connection for ADSL. I know lots of people without a fixed-line phone in their house, but they've all got ADSL modems.

 

[drsmithy]

Lets assume I have a one lane highway with my ADSL running at 7mbs.

So a six lane hihway would be 43Mbs - that's still less than ½ the capacity of VDSL2 using existing copper with FTTN.

Yes, the analogy was flawed. The NBN is more like a star trek transporter compared to a regular 2-lane street. I had to work with what I was given.

 

[ferni]

The coalition's plan for VDS2 means that
1. They will need to put 'nodes' within 300m of every home. That's a lot of nodes. All of these nodes will need land, power, maintenance and add another link in the chain to fail.
2. They will need to replace the existing copper with new copper in a lot of cases because the current stuff just isn't good enough and hasn't been maintained enough. Why bother replacing copper with copper when you can replace it with fibre?

Also ask yourself how fast will your upload be on VDSL2? 8-10mbit max. On FTTP there are plans for 400mbit by end of the year. Upload speed is more important than most people realise.

 

[samh004]

Wow, pretty detailed thread here.

Much of it goes over my head, but just wanted to mention they laid the fibre here in this old complex a few months ago. I actually complained as they cut off my internet momentarily and didn't realise what they were doing. This in turn spurned me onto my providers page to work out if I was going to be better off, and I found out I wasn't. To match/do better on Bigpond than the Cable I use now I'd need to spend significantly more... so I'll be in no rush to switch over.

That said, fibre does sound better than copper in theory, but I wont wade into the discussion too much as I have no clue what you're all talking about

 

[JessicaTam]

The coalition's plan for VDS2 means that
1. They will need to put 'nodes' within 300m of every home. That's a lot of nodes. All of these nodes will need land, power, maintenance and add another link in the chain to fail.
2. They will need to replace the existing copper with new copper in a lot of cases because the current stuff just isn't good enough and hasn't been maintained enough. Why bother replacing copper with copper when you can replace it with fibre?

Also ask yourself how fast will your upload be on VDSL2? 8-10mbit max. On FTTP there are plans for 400mbit by end of the year. Upload speed is more important than most people realise.

FTTP? fibre to the Pole?

 

[ferni]

FTTP? fibre to the Pole?

FTTP = Fibre to the Premise... same thing as fibre to the home

@samh004: Take a look at some other providers such as Internode, their NBN plans are much better value..
Internode :: Residential :: Fibre To The Home :: NBN Plans

 

[serfty]

The coalition's plan for VDS2 means that
1. They will need to put 'nodes' within 300m of every home. That's a lot of nodes.

...

Also ask yourself how fast will your upload be on VDSL2? 8-10mbit max. ...

Methinks your figures are out of date.

That not what Turnbull said:

... speeds of 100mbs over copper up to 400 metres from the node using VDSL2 ...

 

[DeKa]

I hope we do get fibre to the home. I often work from home, as does my wife. We have a high end router which does QoS (Quality of Service) and the network is set up to give priority to certain devices and types of traffic.

We have 11Mbit/1Mbit sync speed. It's not enough - well, the downstream is fine for the moment but the upstream is not enough.

Why?
Let's imagine two IP calls, a web conference (where I'm broadcasting out from here) and someone else browsing or doing something which creates outbound/return traffic. You pretty quickly hit the 1Mbit outbound limit. I'd say that once you get to 800kbps outbound you start to see a drop in performance and the occasional blip in outbound calls.

If one of us hits send on an email with attachments, the outbound is then saturated for a minute or two (so you're relying on QoS to prioritise the call and web conf over other things.

40Mbit upload speed on NBN fibre would give me so much head room it wouldn't be a problem anymore.

 

[cove]

Will you still want it if there is a charge of say $500 or perhaps $1,000 to connect you this way?

 

[DeKa]

Will you still want it if there is a charge of say $500 or perhaps $1,000 to connect you this way?

Yes. $4k or $5k are some other numbers I've heard thrown around - I'd have to think hard at that price though.

 

[ferni]

Methinks your figures are out of date.

That not what Turnbull said:

And Abbott said Turnbull practically invented the Internet... doesn't mean it's true

Speeds of 100mbit up to 500m are possible but rely on high quality copper and interconnects. We don't have that. Our copper network has not been maintained, so a majority of the parts they want to use for FTTN will need to be replaced with new copper. Why replace copper with copper when you can replace it with fibre?

Even if you do replace copper with copper to achieve these 100mbit@500m speeds, you're already pushing this technology (xDSL) towards it's limits. 1gbit Fibre is nowhere near approaching it's limits. Where's the future proofing in a rollout using copper?

 

[ferni]

Will you still want it if there is a charge of say $500 or perhaps $1,000 to connect you this way?

Yes. A $500 connection at a conservative 25 year lifespan for the fibre(more likely to be 50+ years) is $20 per year.

 

[Austman]

Why replace copper with copper when you can replace it with fibre?

Because it's going to be ridiculously expensive for most apartment residents for a start! Like $2,000 or more each! Where there is probably no need to even replace the copper.

The cost of providing the building back-bone with all the building work and repair needed!

Even new copper telephone cabling for much simpler installations costs that or more...

http://www.theage.com.au/digital-lif...815-2rxx6.html

 

[ferni]

Because it's going to be ridiculously expensive for most apartment residents for a start! Like $5,000 or more each!

Cost shouldn't be much difference if replacing copper with copper or copper with fibre in an apartment complex.... I don't see how it should cost $5000 per apartment to replace a copper wire.

 

[cove]

Ferni this is Australia where everything costs a lot but not that much we all hope. The original contractors have been bailing so it would be a pure guess now. The project is out of control but let's not worry about that now.
It will be a big problem for whoever forms the next Government.

 

[drsmithy]

Even if you do replace copper with copper to achieve these 100mbit@500m speeds, you're already pushing this technology (xDSL) towards it's limits. 1gbit Fibre is nowhere near approaching it's limits. Where's the future proofing in a rollout using copper?

There isn't any. This is the Liberals we're talking about - their NBN plan, as with most things, is about delivering yesterday, tomorrow.