NBN Discussion

[moa999]

Also even more life in copper - latest trials of XG.fast have delivered 1.6Gbps over 100m of copper (granted lab only).

G.fast which is nearing commercial rollout can-do 500Mbps

 

[DC3]

100 meters in a lab. Will they be doing anything in the field to produce meaningful results?

 

[moa999]

100 meters in a lab. Will they be doing anything in the field to produce meaningful results?

I'm sure the boffins will get it out of the lab.
But people were saying that 24Mbps on ADSL2+ were the limits of copper.

Since then we have seen VDSL2 to 100, coming G.fast to 500 and now XG.fast

 

[RAM]

A mere twenty years ago people like you were saying something similar about mobile phones and cellular comms; "99.9% of the population having a phone in their pocket will never be required, let alone something they'd pay for. I mean, they all have phones at home and there's public phones everywhere !"

Now those technologies are critical to huge sections of the economy.

Now, now keep it nice.

Making sweeping statements without the full information only shows lack of understanding (+/or knowledge).

As it happens, mobile phones have been around since 1984 at affordable levels (over 30 years ago...), I had one in 1986 and had more sense than you appear to.

I also happen to have an IT degree - so I speak with knowledge, not venom.

I suggest you do some research into what exactly is using the bandwidth available in Australia and other countries. Hi definition cough and other videos do not rank higher than stopping babies being bashed to death despite the authorities being warned dozens of times.

Increasing that bandwidth, for every dwelling, to allow hi-def video to be downloaded 2,000 to 6,000 times faster than it can be viewed - is not high on any business case other than the pay-TV and IP TV operators.

For them it is a wonderful donation by the taxpayer.

As an attempt to deflect attention from K Rudd's other problems at the time - the NBN worked well. That's about the only instance the NBN can be said to have worked well.

 

[drsmithy]

Equally saying you are not biased doesn't mean you aren't.
But as I said everyone is biased.It depends on your life experiences what you make of various situations.
To me you do have a definite bias.
I have revealed mine.

Bias is an irrational or unfair prejudice. I'm happy to try and have a discussion about any comments I've made that you might consider irrational or unfair, but vague accusations are meaningless and unproductive.

 

[drron]

Bias is an irrational or unfair prejudice. I'm happy to try and have a discussion about any comments I've made that you might consider irrational or unfair, but vague accusations are meaningless and unproductive.

Bias has a much broader meaning than you are giving it.
bias - definition of bias in English from the Oxford dictionary

 

[drsmithy]

Now, now keep it nice.

Making sweeping statements without the full information only shows lack of understanding (+/or knowledge).

Ah. You mean like 'the internet is for cough' ?

As it happens, mobile phones have been around since 1984 at affordable levels (over 30 years ago...), I had one in 1986 and had more sense than you appear to.

Mobile phones were not affordable in the mid '80s. Nor were they convenient enough to carry around in your pocket.

These were the phones Nokia released in 1987.

Heck, even when I got my first phone in the early '90s, they were far from common. My father only got his first mobile phone in 1990, and he was running a business that had him driving all over Central QLD.

I also happen to have an IT degree - so I speak with knowledge, not venom.

Congratulations. So do I.

I suggest you do some research into what exactly is using the bandwidth available in Australia and other countries. Hi definition cough and other videos do not rank higher than stopping babies being bashed to death despite the authorities being warned dozens of times.

That is an utterly shameful false dichotomy.

For them it is a wonderful donation by the taxpayer.

You mean like the roads are "a wonderful donation by the taxpayer" to, say, courier companies ?

 

[drsmithy]

Bias has a much broader meaning than you are giving it.
bias - definition of bias in English from the Oxford dictionary

Indeed. But it is a struggle to see how any of the other definitions are relevant to the context in which it was used.

 

[Foreigner]

Mobile phones were not affordable in the mid '80s. Nor were they convenient enough to carry around in your pocket.

You're right. My first mobile phone was like a brick. Purchased in 1988 it cost $4,950!

The picture tells the story about the size...

 

[moa999]

I think the first recognisable by today's standard portable was the Motorola Microtac which made its Aussie debut in the early 90s..


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_MicroTAC

 

[drsmithy]

I think the first recognisable by today's standard portable was the Motorola Microtac which made its Aussie debut in the early 90s..


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_MicroTAC

The quintessential "everyone's got one" mobile phones were the Nokia 5110 and Nokia 3210, released in 1998 and 1999. I seem to recall paying around $300 for my 3210 very shortly after they were released on about a $30 plan.

That is about the timeframe (+/- 2 years) I consider mobile phones to have become mainstream and affordable. You wouldn't see schoolkids walking around with phones like you do today (ie: they're considered disposable), but pretty much anyone with reasonably solid employment who wanted a phone, could get one without major sacrifices AND have people to call.

 

[whatmeworry]

Former nbn CEO Mike Quigley hits back at government.

In particular, Quigley says it's no longer reasonable to blame either costs nor the 2020 completion date for the fibre-plus-copper-plus-cable on either the former fibre-to-the-premises (FTTP) plan or the previous management team.

Quigley told the program that the FTTP costs “came down between the strategic review and the latest corporate plan, which means the actual costs of the other parts, the newer MTM parts, have gone up more than $15 billion.”
“We had four years of being audited by a number of organisations”, he said. Those audit reports – which included assessments both the Australian National Audit Office and PricewaterhouseCoopers – are “absolutely valid”.

Former nbn CEO Mike Quigley ends his silence, unloads on government • The Register

 

[eastwest101]

Does Mike Quigley know where Costa Rica is yet? Credibility = zero

Mr Quigley, who left Alcatel in August 2007 and joined the NBN Co as chief executive in July 2009, initially said the corruption was confined to "two rogue employees" - a statement backed by Communications Minister Stephen Conroy. And before being presented with company records showing he had been Alcatel's Americas president - responsible for North, South and Central America - he maintained he was not responsible for Costa Rica.

"I should not have made the mistake about my responsibility for Costa Rica at the relevant time," Mr Quigley said yesterday.
Mr Quigley confirmed that as Alcatel's Americas president he had been responsible for Ecuador, Honduras and Nicaragua - countries where Alcatel was also involved in corruption.
Mr Quigley conceded he had made a range of incorrect statements regarding the Alcatel corruption case. "Certainly in hindsight I regret I didn't very carefully check the documented facts, but I also didn't realise that somebody would be looking through all this in an enormous amount of detail to make sure that every single thing was correct," he said.

 

[whatmeworry]

NBN CEO confirms 15 billion dollar blowout most due to MTM.

news NBN chief executive Bill Morrow this morning broadly confirmed analysis by his predecessor Mike Quigley showing that the up to $15 billion blowout in the NBN company’s costs was due to the Multi-Technology Mix imposed by Malcolm Turnbull, in a move that appears set to increase the pressure on the Government over the issue.

https://delimiter.com.au/2015/11/09...orrow-15bn-nbn-blowout-mostly-relates-to-mtm/

 

[RAM]

Does Mike Quigley know where Costa Rica is yet? Credibility = zero

Mr Quigley, who left Alcatel in August 2007 and joined the NBN Co as chief executive in July 2009, initially said the corruption was confined to "two rogue employees" - a statement backed by Communications Minister Stephen Conroy. And before being presented with company records showing he had been Alcatel's Americas president - responsible for North, South and Central America - he maintained he was not responsible for Costa Rica.

"I should not have made the mistake about my responsibility for Costa Rica at the relevant time," Mr Quigley said yesterday.
Mr Quigley confirmed that as Alcatel's Americas president he had been responsible for Ecuador, Honduras and Nicaragua - countries where Alcatel was also involved in corruption.
Mr Quigley conceded he had made a range of incorrect statements regarding the Alcatel corruption case. "Certainly in hindsight I regret I didn't very carefully check the documented facts, but I also didn't realise that somebody would be looking through all this in an enormous amount of detail to make sure that every single thing was correct," he said.

That really says a lot doesn't it!

Deny being in charge of operations in a country where your company was found to have acted corruptly - and bluff & bluster your way out of it when you were in charge. The cheek of some journo to check the facts - inexcusable!

Bit like what's happening in NSw with Baird & Berejiklian & Alstom.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/p...al-penalty-to-resolve-foreign-bribery-charges

Found guilty or charged with bribing Govt officials in over 13 countries for 15 projects involving either rail or power stations, charged over $1.1 billion (Australian Dollar equivalent) by the US Govt in a case that had been running since mid 2014 - including unprecedented admission by Alstom's Board in France that it was a 'global' effort (sending USD 100 notes in boxes from a private Swiss bank so there was no electronic money trail for the bribes - to 11 countries around the world used as bribe distribution points).

Hard to find a project they "won" (bought?) anywhere in the world that they weren't caught bribing Govt officials and MPs.

Yet Baird & Berejiklian gave them two major contracts in Sept 2015 and Dec 2015.

Hard to claim they "weren't in charge" of it!

Even better though, like with the Alcatel morass, Alstom was effectively bankrupted by the US Govt fine 3 days after being awarded the 2nd contract by Baird & Berejiklian. Curiously enough, though not revealed last Dec, the US Govt allowed them time to sell the Power business (lion's share of Alstom) to GE - so they weren't bankrupted by the USD772 m fine.

So much for due diligence all round...

 

[moa999]

Whilst a big fine, think it was known, and the company made almost $200m for the last half

 

[drron]

I hope you are not suggesting NSW officials were bribed.
And due diligence does not mean avoiding any company that has ever bribed government officials but is about the quality of work done and their ability to do it.I suspect RAM that neither you or the journalist do not have any evidence of wrong doing by the NSW Treasury.

 

[serfty]

NBN CEO confirms 15 billion dollar blowout most due to MTM. ...

I give little credence to Delimiter's articles, especially those on the NBN.

This Fin. Review article is more balanced: NBN faces $1.5 billion reality bite | afr.com

The extra cost is estimated as between $5 billion and $15 billion.

Still it's gunna cost more than expected; however note the following:

The shrinkage of the rolled gold fibre connections from 92 per cent to 20 per cent will deliver estimated taxpayer savings of $20 billion to $30 billion. ...

So, savings all up of at least $20 billion with the MTM.

 

[drsmithy]

I give little credence to Delimiter's articles, especially those on the NBN.

This Fin. Review article is more balanced: NBN faces $1.5 billion reality bite | afr.com

You can tell they're "balanced" with language like "rolled gold fibre connections".

Still it's gunna cost more than expected; however note the following:So, savings all up of at least $20 billion with the MTM.

Are those "savings" including the higher ongoing maintenance costs of MTM, and the need to rip and replace all that copper in a decade or two when it runs out of capacity ?

 

[RAM]

I hope you are not suggesting NSW officials were bribed.
And due diligence does not mean avoiding any company that has ever bribed government officials but is about the quality of work done and their ability to do it.I suspect RAM that neither you or the journalist do not have any evidence of wrong doing by the NSW Treasury.

Not suggesting anything.

However, many years ago NSW Treasury, or rather a VERY senior NSW Treasury person forgot that his personal fax left a header on documents which is how I traced who sent me a list of securities that were supposed to be transferred to my management and sold for same day settlement. This was the one and only time in nearly four months of communications that a fax came from his personal fax. Trouble was that many of them did not exist - I rang every supposed issuer to confirm just in case. Showed fax to CEO of bank (who took half a dozen copies) and advised me to do the same just in case. Still have a few salted away together with a print-out of my calls to all the issuers and their faxes confirming they had NEVER issued the security described.

Selling a fixed interest security that does not exist is a criminal act. Not a good look for the first private sector fund manager to be given funds by the NSW Govt! Not a 'fun' phone call to one of the top NSW Treasury execs to request a 'corrected' listing.

Back to the current day...

Treasury was not involved almost at all (according to the official documents). TfNSW went to some lengths to ignore the NSW Treasury (as per documents released June 2014).

TfNSW in fact turned down offers of assistance by NSW Treasury funnily enough.

There is evidence of Alstom bribing to win projects on every other populated continent BUT Australia.
There is evidence of Alstom Head Office supporting bribing to win both transport and power projects on all those other continents.
There is evidence that such action has been going on consistently.
There is evidence that Alstom decided at the highest level to ACTIVELY hide/disrupt/delay/derail the investigations by authorities into the bribery.
There is evidence that Alstom would have been bankrupted if the US Govt had enforced the normal 'pay within 10 business days' on the fine. They would have been in breach of most of their global funding agreements.
There is evidence that this information was suppressed.

There is NO evidence that due diligence was conducted into their suitability (not in any of the documents the State Govt was forced to provide in June 2014 which were supposed to include EVERY email, report, presentation, file note etc to do with the CSELR).
There is evidence that the information provided to the reporter was incorrect.

However if a company has been found/charged with have been actively engaging in corruption in more than 13 countries for nearly 2 decades to have been using 2 specially set up two separate departments at its head office in France (known by the Board) to deliberately bribe Govt officials and Govt MPs - then is it really the type of company that ANY Govt should be TRUSTING let alone rewarding?

Alstom did change the name of the Transport department involved in the 'bidding' enhancement though. (Took 6 minutes of searching to uncover that some months back).

Many Govts have said no.

The Norwegian Govt (and its Sovereign Fund) have conducted an in-depth investigation and published the results.

The Brazilian Govt has frozen all their assets in Brazil.

You get the picture.

Mind you the FBI transcripts of VERY senior Alstom France exec who got caught in-transit at JFK - make very compelling reading. He was 'approached' and 'requested' to assist the FBI in 'advanced investigative techniques'.

Don't you just love the language. In common parlance he was asked to wear a wire which subsequently yielded at least 48 hours of actionable recordings at the highest levels of Alstom France. So far only 48 hours have been admitted into evidence. He was given a choice but Rikers Island is not really that much of an alternative.

The recordings and transcripts have been given to a number of countries but NSW apparently does not have them.

Very compelling evidence indeed.

That is why the Board issued the various deeds in the name of the France based company - not local subsidiaries.

There are currently outstanding corruption courts cases in at least 5 countries that I know of. There are 3 in the UK alone which, if Alstom is found guilty can result in it being banned from ANY business in the entire EU for 4 years. That would bankrupt it.

Shipping boxes of USD 100 notes from a private Swiss bank to eleven countries around the world to be used as bribe distribution centres (several in Asia) is not what I as a Tax Payer want to be rewarding.

Did you have a read of the FBI page and the links to the documents? You should.

Strange how the French Govt and police were tipped off in 2008 and yet there have been no prosecutions to this day in France? Even the World Bank discovered what they were doing - involved a World bank project.

So no, not suggesting anything wrong has been done but would like an investigation to confirm that. With 11 MPs and counting caught by the ICAC so far in NSW I never jump to conclusions - just ask the questions.

When the minister's office was asked about what due diligence was done they refused to say. They also stated (on public record) that Alstom had never been charged for bribery on transport projects.

Trouble is they had been charged at least 7 times dating back some years.

Makes you wonder whether the due diligence consisted of a lunch and asking an Alstom employee if they had ever bribed to win a transport project?

Perhaps like the NBN example above - they did not expect the journo to doubt the answer from the minister's office?

He rang me and asked me to send him through the various charge sheets and 3rd party sources - then the Telegraph ran the story.

Now the Auditor General is investigating, supplied with some VERY intriguing documents, the CSELR process.