New low in employee engagement at Qantas? Pilots being threatened over Project Sunrise pay deal...

[Zanzara]

According to Pilot representatives, mentioned in an interesting article in the Age:-

Qantas threatens to bring in new pilots for 'Sunrise' flights

Qantas has told its international pilots it will bring in a separate workforce to operate its slated non-stop flights from east coast Australia to London and New York if they do not agree to a new wage agreement.

www.theage.com.au

threats by Tiny La Spina, to bring in pilots specifically to fly NY & LHR on different contacts are a 'new low in employee engagement at Qantas'.

 

[Kendall Roy]

Blind freddy predicted this the minute pilot agreements were tabled as a key milestone for Project Sunrise.

Surely pilot costs are minuscule in the overall scheme of things, or is the business case just that tight?

 

[Aus ATC]

The race to the bottom continues - overseas based conditions for QF mainline (London, New Zealand for example), Jetstar... Surely there can be mutually agreeable conditions for these services that are economically viable. As suggested by @Ari Gold, surely fuel costs are the real key (no doubt there is a significant "fuel carriage" cost for these long range ops).

 

[SeaWolf]

I just don't think it would be a proper Qantas project if Alan Joyce didn't pick an unnecessary fight with the union.

 

[I love to travel]

I just don't think it would be a proper Qantas project if Alan Joyce didn't pick an unnecessary fight with the union.

Agreed. But I do wonder if the numbers are not adding up and that is why he is doing it. Negative publicity around the flagship product that has already garnered lots of worldwide attention doesn't make sense.

 

[p--and--t]

I'm a bit surprised at people being surprised.

Airlines are a razor thin margin highly competitive businesses with those who don't make hard decisions going bankrupt on a monthly basis in the last couple of years.

Not nice, not palatable to many, its just business being business - like Aussie Post paying contractors $1.50 per parcel delivery instead of using paid staff. People want their online shopping delivery for free or very low cost and don't think twice about the delivery person.

 

[sxc]

Or was the project always about breaking the pilot unions??

 

[esseeeayeenn]

The argument is't over what pilots will be paid, it's over maximum working hours and rest times.
Safety issues we should all be concerned about.
If the project can't meet current safety standards perhaps it shouldn't go ahead?

 

[juddles]

I am confused here. I had thought that the Qantas pilots were concerned about the technicalities of such ultra long flights - ie issues of fatigue, etc. But this makes it seem that the internal debate is about sheer dollars. So is it about money or safety?????

As p--and--t has already stated, airlines are on a razor's edge. Qantas perhaps more than many. Project Sunrise is IMHO a cutting edge new thing. There would be many difficulties in making it a success. I am completely unsurprised that Qantas has, amongst many other planning tools, the ability to contract pilots at a commercially-viable cost basis.

At the end of the day, if they want to go ahead with Sunrise, and current pilot claims make it unviable, I understand why they will do it a different way.....

The argument is't over what pilots will be paid, it's over maximum working hours and rest times.
.....

Please expand on this - what info are you aware of that says this??

 

[jpp42]

It may not be about what individual pilots are paid, but fewer working hours equals more pilots required, which means more cost to Qantas.

 

[N860CR]

But this makes it seem that the internal debate is about sheer dollars. So is it about money or safety?????

As Qantas has done with the recent Jetstar issues, they are putting a "dollar value" (and nobody knows how they come to this) on the rest, fatigue etc issues that the pilot union has raised. This means they can say things like "the $300k per year Captains want a 15% payrise!", which isn't even close to true.

"Project Sunrise" is one of the biggest scams ever to have been spat out by Coward St. It's simply another route that needs to comply with long established work/rest rules. Qantas are simply using this as a way to drag down wages in the most expensive country in the world. How are those 3 hour call centre waits going... Things are not well at QF!

 

[Deleted member]

Safety, wages, fatigue, I guess it is all relative.
The thing I find interesting is that on the one hand, we s travellers want Hyundai prices for a Rolls Royce experience.
It cannot continue the way it has, if we as travellers want to fly on the safest Airline in the world, maybe we need to expect there is a cost for that.
That said European based airlines fly similar routes to and from Australia and do it for considerably less than QF charges. But are they still viable businesses?
The answer, like the question is vexed.

 

[jb747]

It‘s not a negotiation when one side comes in with a series of demands, and then refuses to modify any of them, whilst disallowing everything from the other side.

Personally, having done 20 hour tours of duty, I wouldn’t even consider getting on one as a passenger. There’s a lot of the frog in boiling water about this entire operation.

 

[I love to travel]

OMAAT have covered this today. Personally fatigued pilots on these routes would be a reason I would not fly it.

Qantas Threatens To Hire Low Cost Pilots

Ahead of new ultra long haul flights from Australia to London and New York, Qantas is threatening to hire lower cost pilots. Here's why.

onemileatatime.com

 

[Spongbob]

It‘s not a negotiation when one side comes in with a series of demands, and then refuses to modify any of them, whilst disallowing everything from the other side.

It is still negotiation; just bad faith negotiation (i.e. not "good faith" negotiation).

 

[p--and--t]

I'm a bit surprised at people being surprised.

Airlines are a razor thin margin highly competitive businesses with those who don't make hard decisions going bankrupt on a monthly basis in the last couple of years.

Not nice, not palatable to many, its just business being business - like Aussie Post paying contractors $1.50 per parcel delivery instead of using paid staff. People want their online shopping delivery for free or very low cost and don't think twice about the delivery person.

I had another thought overnight. Is this really anything new?

I have no facts to back it up, but would not be surprised if QFd, QFi, JQ, QQ, QFE/NC, 3K, GK and maybe even JQNZ would all be flying under different conditions/salary/allowances - and in the end they are all under the Qantas umbrella.

 

[moa999]

It is still negotiation; just bad faith negotiation (i.e. not "good faith" negotiation).

Unless you're in the negotiation room hard to say on which side the good or bad faith lies. I cant imagine that QF made this announcement lightly.

If I was a pilot, particularly without kids, these flights would seem very attractive.
Over say a 4-day schedule 40-hrs of duty time, probably half at rest and only a couple of the more stressful takeoffs and landings (seemingly none for the SOs who will operate in cruise only).

Versus say a 737 pilot who over 4-days would get a lot less hours, a lot more takeoffs and landings at lower pay.

 

[RSD]

Personally, having done 20 hour tours of duty, I wouldn’t even consider getting on one as a passenger. There’s a lot of the frog in boiling water about this entire operation.

I saw some footage of planes coming into land at LHR during the very recent Storm Ciara and I decided that there was clear safety issues with pilots being expected to land in those sorts of conditions after such a long flight - sorry AJ but I'm not doing - Project Sunrise sounds like one of those "just because it can potentially be done doesn't necessarily mean that it is either safe nor sensible"

 

[Jaded_Elf]

I had another thought overnight. Is this really anything new?

I have no facts to back it up, but would not be surprised if QFd, QFi, JQ, QQ, QFE/NC, 3K, GK and maybe even JQNZ would all be flying under different conditions/salary/allowances - and in the end they are all under the Qantas umbrella.

Yep, all different EBAs.

 

[justinbrett]

I saw some footage of planes coming into land at LHR during the very recent Storm Ciara and I decided that there was clear safety issues with pilots being expected to land in those sorts of conditions after such a long flight - sorry AJ but I'm not doing - Project Sunrise sounds like one of those "just because it can potentially be done doesn't necessarily mean that it is either safe nor sensible"

It’s a valid point, but where do you draw the line? PER-LHR is not much shorter, nor BNE-ORD or SYD-DFW. DFW in particular is well known for routine severe thunderstorms. I’m not sure you‘re any more or less safe on any of these routes.

Sunrise will happen sooner or later. If not by Qantas, by someone else. But it will happen.