Oneworld Classic Flight Reward Discussion - The Definitive Thread

[JohnK]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

What if you're connecting onto the same carrier? I have a AONE5 coming up and my connection time at LHR T5 is 1:40 from one BA flight in F to another in CE. I assume BA would reaccommodate me on the later flight?

I am not an expert but I am guessing that you will be reaccommodated by BA on a later flight and I do not think your AONE5 is going to cancelled that quickly after missing a flight due to miss connection.

 

[Gold Member]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

I figure its about time I used some of my QFF points on a Z10 Oneworld award before QFi goes bottoms up! So I've devised a few routing permutations in accordance with the rules, but I am unclear on one aspect - the preceding destination prior to a surface sector at the end of an itinerary counting as a stopover or not.

For arguments sake, let's assume my itinerary is (MEL-xSYD-SCL-LAX)()-(LHR-SYD)-(NRT-xSYD-PER). Though somewhat irrelevant, I will be nesting a US Air award within it from LAX and spreading my travel out over three separate trips within the 12 month window indicated by the brackets. I have maxxed out my two 'transfers' (transits denoted as 'x') in SYD, and I'm not stopping (>24 hours) in any one destination more than once. But as you can see, my final destination is not the same as the origin (MEL), and therefore the itinerary must include the distance (PER-MEL) to return to the origin. That's OK with me, I'll buy a separate ticket or whatever, BUT, by treating the final sector as a surface sector, am I effectively gaining an additional stopover (6 instead of 5) by virtue of the fact that PER is not officially a transit or stopover?

Does anyone have any experience to suggest this may be possible? I suspect not, and that QF will treat it as a stopover but worth a try.

 

[JohnK]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

Does anyone have any experience to suggest this may be possible? I suspect not, and that QF will treat it as a stopover but worth a try.

Your biggest problem is that once you return to SYD the first time the Oneworld award is over. You cannot have more than 1 international departure from your country of Origin.

Also I believe both ports of a surface sector are regarded as a stopover.

 

[Gold Member]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

Hi John

I seem to recall a rule/condition similar to what you've described but I cannot find it anywhere on QF's website for the life of me. Conditions 14.5x do not stipulate, nor does any commentary surrounding the partner award tables. Can you link/quote me the appropriate condition please? I can rework my routing to accommodate this condition if it is valid so that shouldn't be a problem, rather just an inconvenience. Is it possible that this rule is for a Revenue Oneworld fare (DONE4) but not applicable to QF Oneworld Awards?

I think you are right regarding both ports of a SS being considered as a stopover and I'll leave it at that. Too much possible time wasting calculating alternative routes for such an unlikely loophole gain.

 

[serfty]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

The country of origin rules exists ... It in mentioned in a nealier post -i'll find it.

14.3.5 A Classic Award Itinerary must contain no more than one departure from the city or country of first departure on that Itinerary.

A oneworld award is still considered a classic award.

Frequent Flyer - About the Program - Terms & Conditions

14.3.5 A Classic Award Itinerary must contain no more than one departure from the city or country of first departure on that Itinerary.

You can start in NZ, and come back to Australia, but:

14.5.4 The following Stopover conditions apply:
(a) up to five free Stopovers are permitted;
(b) additional Stopovers are not permitted;
(c) only one Stopover is permitted in any one city in the Itinerary; and
(d) only two Transfers may be taken at any one city in the Itinerary.

e.g. You can only stopover in BNE once, but you can also stopover in OOL and MCY.

As far as stopover go for surface segments, they use one, not two.

Definitely only one stopover for a surface segment. I made the most of the 5 stopovers available when booking a QF OneWorld Award by routing:
BNE-AKL-LAX//LAS-LAX-DFW-MCO//YYZ-LHR-KBP//KBP-LHR-NCL//TXL-HAM-HEL//HEL-FRA-HKG-SYD-BNE

DFW was an overnight stay of 23 hours so not counted as a stopover. HKG was a 15 hours daytime sightseeing transit. Surface segments LAX-LAS involved 2 weeks of driving including Monterey, San Francisco, Yosemite NP, Sequoia NP, Zion NP, Grand Canyon etc. MCO-YYZ involved a lot of driving and traains, NCL-TXL included 2 weeks driving around the UK and 2 weeks training through Europe. So only KBP and HEL were stopovers involving arrival and departure form the same point.

Obviously this was prior to the 16 segment limit

.

 

[Gold Member]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

Thanks Serfty! I bow to your wisdom, yet again.

That rule is a bummer... if you are originating in Australia that is. Seems I might have to rework my US Air Award so that I commence my QF OW Award in NA/EU so that I can come in and out of AUS a few times but within stated conditions. But IIRC, I think you (or maybe someone else) PM'd me a couple of years ago advising of a great way to optimise a Z10 QF OW Award. That is, make separate return trips to/from Australia to different APAC ports as long as you didn't violate the 1 destination/2 transit rule. So you'd end up flying through BNE/SYD/MEL and connecting up via separate paid positioning fares. I've always sought to use that flexibility when determining routing to optimise the number of trips to/from AUS. Is condition 14.3.5 recent within the last few years or is my impending senility kicking in prematurely?

WRT stopovers, I realise they count as a single 'segment', but I'm not anywhere near any limit (16?) for a classic award. BTW, I thought the 16 segment limit was a XONEX rule, not QF classic rule? I thought QF OW Classic awards were limited by mileage, not segments?

In either case, and regardless of the source country problems you spelt out above, I'm still a little unclear about the surface sector as a final segment... So, if my origin was MEL, and my final segment of the Z10 classic award was PER-MEL as a surface sector, does the PER destination count as a stopover or not? I assume that any surface sector mandates that the previous destination must be a stopover but I just want to be sure.

 

[serfty]

I don't believe a surface segment
being the notional "return to origin" is considered a stopover.

Posted on a wing and a prayer ...

 

[JohnK]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

In either case, and regardless of the source country problems you spelt out above, I'm still a little unclear about the surface sector as a final segment... So, if my origin was MEL, and my final segment of the Z10 classic award was PER-MEL as a surface sector, does the PER destination count as a stopover or not? I assume that any surface sector mandates that the previous destination must be a stopover but I just want to be sure.

If your trip ends in PER then that will be the end of the trip and PER should not be regarded as a stopover although total Oneworld award distance will be calculated through to MEL.

I have not looked into the details but would it be possible to start the Oneworld award in New Zealand to have more than 1 arrival/departure from Australia?

 

[sumthinfornuthin]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

Can these be bought as a JASA at a capped point level and get points and SC ??

 

[Danger]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

Can these be bought as a JASA at a capped point level and get points and SC ??

(If I understand your query correctly) I don't believe so, no. The nature of xASAs means the points cost can be several hundred thousand.

 

[penegal]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

Can these be bought as a JASA at a capped point level and get points and SC ??

Short answer - no

(unfortunately)


You could probably replicate with several one-way xASAs, but it would almost certainly cost more both in terms of ++'s and points.
A better solution would be a hybrid of cheap J revenue fares, YUPP/KUPPs, and xASAs if you can get them cheap enough.

 

[Gold Member]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

I have not looked into the details but would it be possible to start the Oneworld award in New Zealand to have more than 1 arrival/departure from Australia?

The answer to your question is YES, JohnK.

I've just about finalised my itinerary as: (AMS-xLHR-SFO-xLAX-MEL)-(SYD-NRT-SYD-ssMEL)-(HKG-FRA-ssAMS). Where:

'x' = transfer/transit,
'()' = separate trip within the 12 month window,
'ss' = surface sector.

Total miles is 34,991 - still peeved I've left 9 miles on the table

Having just spoken with a very knowledgeable Premium Desk Agent and asking some probing questions, I can confirm that:

- Surface sectors do not count toward the stopover max count of 5. They are therefore effectively offering you additional stopovers, albeit at the expense of the mileage added to the total routing. Assuming a non-AU origin, these can work quite handily if you want to break up your trip over the 12 months. Just pay for a simple revenue fare to get between cities.
- QF will allow you to book with non-operating carrier flight numbers. That is, I can fly on BA metal LHR-SFO but book it with an AA or IB codeshare flight number. Why do this? AA doesn't charge anywhere near the same amount of fees and taxes as BA (mostly YQ).
- The Flight number (inc non-operating carriers offering codeshares - see example above) is what's used in the determination of 'minimum 2 Oneworld Alliance Airlines'. Not the operating carrier.

So while we all know that AA is cheapest for taxes and fees, is there any clear understanding or scientific mapping of which OW members charge more or less than the other? In order of lowest to highest, perhaps AA/AB/IB/LA/S7/JL/CX/BA/QF (with a big gap between S7 and JL) ?? I know its hard to say one carrier is X% more than the other, but can we generalise? Are the differences route specific? I'm sure I could bring my QF taxes and fees on this proposed itinerary from the quoted $1498 to under $1000 if I choose the right codeshares that are available.

 

[deka2]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

THis question may have been answered before and apologies if it has.

Do you have to include a Qantas flight in the trip.


14.5.1 A oneworld Award is a Classic Award Itinerary that includes travel on at least two oneworld Alliance Airlines other than Qantas and does not include any travel on any airline that is not a oneworld Alliance Airline.

 

[flychrisfly]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

Having just spoken with a very knowledgeable Premium Desk Agent and asking some probing questions, I can confirm that:

- Surface sectors do not count toward the stopover max count of 5. They are therefore effectively offering you additional stopovers, albeit at the expense of the mileage added to the total routing. Assuming a non-AU origin, these can work quite handily if you want to break up your trip over the 12 months. Just pay for a simple revenue fare to get between cities.
- QF will allow you to book with non-operating carrier flight numbers. That is, I can fly on BA metal LHR-SFO but book it with an AA or IB codeshare flight number. Why do this? AA doesn't charge anywhere near the same amount of fees and taxes as BA (mostly YQ).
- The Flight number (inc non-operating carriers offering codeshares - see example above) is what's used in the determination of 'minimum 2 Oneworld Alliance Airlines'. Not the operating carrier.

So while we all know that AA is cheapest for taxes and fees, is there any clear understanding or scientific mapping of which OW members charge more or less than the other? In order of lowest to highest, perhaps AA/AB/IB/LA/S7/JL/CX/BA/QF (with a big gap between S7 and JL) ?? I know its hard to say one carrier is X% more than the other, but can we generalise? Are the differences route specific? I'm sure I could bring my QF taxes and fees on this proposed itinerary from the quoted $1498 to under $1000 if I choose the right codeshares that are available.

Some great tips there GM, thanks!

 

[Danger]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

THis question may have been answered before and apologies if it has.

Do you have to include a Qantas flight in the trip.


14.5.1 A oneworld Award is a Classic Award Itinerary that includes travel on at least two oneworld Alliance Airlines other than Qantas and does not include any travel on any airline that is not a oneworld Alliance Airline.

As per the T&Cs, yes. At least one Qantas flight must be included.

 

[serfty]

As per the T&Cs, yes. At least one Qantas flight must be included.

That is incorrect - you can have a QFF oneworld award without a QF flight.

Posted on a wing and a prayer ...

 

[deka2]

I'm glad for that, thanks Serfty.
The dummy bookings to Europe I've tried for next May/June are showing no J availability through SIN and only CX through HKG, in both directions.
My most surprising booking has been
LHR-DXB-HKG-SYD on BA CX and QF . The taxes came out at $2,293, take out DXB and it dropped to $1,160.
No Dubai for us this trip.

 

[Sprucegoose]

There is no such thing as over planning !!

 

[Danger]

re: "oneworld" award (140K/280K/420K) Planning - The Definitive Thread

That is incorrect - you can have a QFF oneworld award without a QF flight.

Posted on a wing and a prayer ...

I apologise. But I'm confused! I was sure I was told it needed to be QF plus a minimum of two others. Regardless, how does this reconcile with 14.5.1?

 

[Sprucegoose]

I did one in June. Booked about a month out and got flights I was happy with. It took a bit of hunting down sectors, with several windows open, but I managed to join up all the dots.

Getting in and out of Australia is the tricky bit. My Cathay Pacific flight out of Melbourne was chockers to Honkers. I didn't get QF LAX-SYD, instead I went JFK to Narita (a delightful daylight flight the whole way with the bonus a birds eye view of midsummer Alaska) and then got the red-eye kangaroo home. The jumbo was about a third full, so as soon as the seatbelt sign came off, we all swapped around. I had a row to myself, but unfortunately it was a bulkhead row with fixed armrests. Even though I couldn't stretch out across the row, it was a pleasure having plenty of room for my gear, and unfettered access to the aisle.

Once you are out of Australia, there are generally lots of choices available, especially in Europe. Just be creative about routing. And times.

One highlight of the trip was the Frankfurt-London leg. I flew in a little Avro across the Channel, we came in along the Thames, turned over Buckingham Palace, and then flew low over the City to land at London City airport, a sweet little one-runway place where it is a short walk to the Docklands Light Railway into town.

Something to note about these long award flights. With a oneWorld Explorer, after you take the first flight, everything is flexible. But with an award flight, if you miss one departure, the rest of the itinerary is wiped.

Great summary Skyring. My appetite is wetted!!