Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

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Whilst there are many decisions that are not the PMs to make, the date of an election is. If the PM chooses to discuss this with members of their cabinet, so be it.

Apart from the dismissal of Whitlam and the subesquent installing of Fraser, I can recall no election that has been pre-determined by anyone other than the PM. I only cite this example as I believe that Fraser was required to go to the polls as soon as possible to confirm the GGs decision - I may be mistaken.
 
I just want it on the record that I was never happier than the day that Cap'n Bligh was deposed. Just not entirely sure that Newman has really turned things around. You mention public servants, I immediately think of Nurses and emergency services personnel.

See I think of public servants - and by and large I think of bureaucrats and inefficiencies.

Two facts about the public service:

1/ Not every public servant is a nurse/firefighter etc.

2/ The public service (as a general rule) will never be as efficient as the private sector as there is not the inherent spending-restraint mentality that exists in a private firm. (I'm not saying anything about things "should be run privately" just commenting that there's no imperative to save money as most public servants just see it as coming from the "government bottomless pit").


At the end of the day someone has to pay for all those public servants - most of whose employment does nothing to generate economic growth.

He might be wrong - but I'm prepared to give him the 1st term benefit of the doubt - can always turf him out in 3 years :)
 
See I think of public servants - and by and large I think of bureaucrats and inefficiencies.

Two facts about the public service:

1/ Not every public servant is a nurse/firefighter etc.

But he has canned nurses and firefighters, hasn't he?

2/ The public service (as a general rule) will never be as efficient as the private sector as there is not the inherent spending-restraint mentality that exists in a private firm. (I'm not saying anything about things "should be run privately" just commenting that there's no imperative to save money as most public servants just see it as coming from the "government bottomless pit").

That does not match my experience at all. You'll find that the main impediment to saving is the budgeting arrangements which is exactly the same as what I've experienced in private industry.

The other thing is that lots of service agencies get squeezed so hard they can't do their core functions. Yet things like premier's departments seem to have expanding budgets and staffing. That's a political decision. Oh and things like mines departments do well in their budgets because they do create growth and produce government revenue.
 
Whilst there are many decisions that are not the PMs to make, the date of an election is. If the PM chooses to discuss this with members of their cabinet, so be it.

There is a difference between discussing it with them, and potentially be influenced by them, as opposed to not telling them at all but simply announcing it in a Press Gallery that wasn't called specifically for an announcement. That is called "blindside". She still had the right to call the election when she wanted, but common decency would suggest that the caucus would have been informed before the media was. Well, I call that decency anyway.
 
I just want it on the record that I was never happier than the day that Cap'n Bligh was deposed. Just not entirely sure that Newman has really turned things around. You mention public servants, I immediately think of Nurses and emergency services personnel.

See I think of public servants - and by and large I think of bureaucrats and inefficiencies.

1/ Not every public servant is a nurse/firefighter etc.

Interesting facts regarding QLD health:- Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

Quote from the article....

Gosh, I thought, 1500 jobs sounds quite a lot. So I decided to find out how many people are employed in Queensland Health. The answer is more than 80,000. Annual natural attrition would account for more than double the proposed job cuts of 1500, which represent a mere 1.9 per cent of total employment.

But here's the rub. A decade ago, employment in Queensland Health stood at 49,000. So in 10 years there has been an increase of more than 32,000 employees - an increase of two-thirds.

But here's a further rub. Whereas the number of nurses in effective full-time terms increased by 65 per cent over the decade, the number of managerial and clerical staff rose by 103 per cent during the same period. There are now nearly 15,000 managers and clerical staff in Queensland Health, a fair proportion of whom hang out in the head office in Brisbane.
 
Interesting facts regarding QLD health:- Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

Quote from the article....

Gosh, I thought, 1500 jobs sounds quite a lot. So I decided to find out how many people are employed in Queensland Health. The answer is more than 80,000. Annual natural attrition would account for more than double the proposed job cuts of 1500, which represent a mere 1.9 per cent of total employment.

Which makes forced redundancy with all the costs a complete waste of time. Instead of wasting money, they just had to put a freeze on recruitment.

But here's the rub. A decade ago, employment in Queensland Health stood at 49,000. So in 10 years there has been an increase of more than 32,000 employees - an increase of two-thirds.

But here's a further rub. Whereas the number of nurses in effective full-time terms increased by 65 per cent over the decade, the number of managerial and clerical staff rose by 103 per cent during the same period. There are now nearly 15,000 managers and clerical staff in Queensland Health, a fair proportion of whom hang out in the head office in Brisbane.

Clearly we can't get that bottom line 15000 from the numbers you've quoted. But there is a need for clerical staff to make sure the doctors and nurses get paid. There is also a need for management. If you just have doctors running off treating people without coordination all sorts of funny things can happen. There is a risk of a mentality that values throughput above all else, to the point that mistakes happen that might just be ignored.

Sorry I'm being cryptic but I can't really say anything more. Probably the more important question is whether 15000/80000 is the correct ratio.
 
Which makes forced redundancy with all the costs a complete waste of time. Instead of wasting money, they just had to put a freeze on recruitment.

The final number ended up just over 4,000.
 
The growth of the Qld Public Service under Labor has been ridiculously high as amaroo's figures show. Same thing has happened Federally where the numbers of spin doctors and the like in the PM's and Ministers' departments have grown at ridiculous rates. And don't forget that numbers are up because of the huge increase in red tape that Labor (with plenty of pressure from the Greens) have imposed on virtually everything. I recall one interview where a former Labor minister and now mining company director (sorry, can't remember his name) stated how oppressive it was that his company had to go through 1400 separate processes to satisfy all of the environmental and other requirements for new projects - and the time frame for achieving that went from around 2 years to over 5. That all creates demand for more public servants. No wonder productivity has declined in Aus.
 
Sorry I'm being cryptic but I can't really say anything more. Probably the more important question is whether 15000/80000 is the correct ratio.

I did post a link....anyway here you go.

JUDITH SLOAN


A bloated public service not healthy



  • BY:JUDITH SLOAN, CONTRIBUTING ECONOMICS EDITOR
  • From:The Australian
  • October 01, 2012 12:00AM

IN order to avoid the winter chills of Melbourne, I hang out in Queensland quite a bit these days. A few weeks ago, I was tuned in to the evening news to be told that the LNP government was planning to cut 1500 jobs in health.


Gosh, I thought, 1500 jobs sounds quite a lot. So I decided to find out how many people are employed in Queensland Health. The answer is more than 80,000. Annual natural attrition would account for more than double the proposed job cuts of 1500, which represent a mere 1.9 per cent of total employment.

But here's the rub. A decade ago, employment in Queensland Health stood at 49,000. So in 10 years there has been an increase of more than 32,000 employees - an increase of two-thirds.

But here's a further rub. Whereas the number of nurses in effective full-time terms increased by 65 per cent over the decade, the number of managerial and clerical staff rose by 103 per cent during the same period. There are now nearly 15,000 managers and clerical staff in Queensland Health, a fair proportion of whom hang out in the head office in Brisbane.

The observant reader might make the point that Queensland's population has grown over that time; indeed, population growth has been higher in Queensland than in Australia as a whole. However, the average annual growth in the number of Queensland Health staff has been well over two times higher than the growth in the population.

The media, particularly in Queensland, has been making much of the supposedly "savage" job cuts being implemented by the LNP government, in part picking up the campaign being waged by the trade union movement in the state. What is less often reported is the fact the Queensland public service had been growing at a ridiculous rate under the Bligh Labor government, which had in part led to a 10-fold increase in the state's debt and the downgrading of its credit rating.

As Ken Wiltshire, an expert in public administration, and a Queenslander, pointed out on this page last week, there "was a blowout in the amount spent on public servants across the past decade, at 8.7 per cent a year. Of that, 3.5 per cent was attributed to the number of employees and 5.2 per cent to growth of wages.

"All this is far higher public expenditure growth than the national average."

A very dubious arrangement also emerged in the Queensland public service in which a category of "permanent temporary" staff was created. Many of these permanent temporaries are - quite legitimately - being targeted by the LNP government.

Into this politically toxic atmosphere, made worse by lazy journalism, the federal government has now weighed in with its unbelievable epithet: "We make hard decisions, but we focus on finding efficiencies. The Coalition slashes jobs." But is Penny Wong really telling the truth?

The first point to note is that if there are all these inefficient practices in the federal arena, why has it taken the Labor government five years to do something about them? The second point is that shifting the budget from a $44 billion deficit last financial year to a $1.5bn surplus will not be achieved by shaving a few dollars off printing costs or making senior public servants travel cattle class. (I wonder whether the politicians will also be made to travel down the back of the plane - I don't think so.)

But the most important point is this year's budget explicitly plans for a cut of 3073 in the average staffing level of agencies in the Australian government general government sector - a cut of 1.3 per cent (not much lower than the planned cut to Queensland Health).

And with the super-efficiency dividend of 4 per cent being imposed on government agencies, the number of job cuts will be higher again. Indeed, it is entirely plausible the number could be double the planned reduction of 3000. So, yes, the federal Labor government also slashes jobs; it should just be more explicit about it. Having been told by Kevin Rudd that the "reckless spending" must stop and that a "meat axe" would be taken to the "bloated" public service, in government, Labor went weak at the knees.

The Australian public service has grown by an average of just under 1 per cent a year since the Labor government has been in office.

Evidently, the meat axe was very blunt. It is only now that job cuts are being made.

Returning to the Queensland situation, the LNP government has no alternative but to push on with its planned reduction to the size of the public sector. But in order to sustain a smaller public sector, more thinking needs to be done about the future of particular activities and programs. The experience of the Howard government was that initial cuts to public sector jobs are only temporary, unless constant attention is paid to limiting new spending and new programs.

Ever keen to play politics rather than prosecute good public policy, federal Workplace Relations Minister Bill Shorten has also decided to become involved in Queensland politics by proposing an amendment to the Fair Work Act to limit the ability of the Queensland government to contract out work.

Shorten's idea is that there will be a new transmission of business provision in the act that will mean any public servant who shifts to work for an outside provider of government services must retain all employment conditions.
He really should know better. He obviously hasn't been paying any attention to the successful outsourcing of employment services, which is undertaken by the federal government through his own department.

Just because there is a case for governments to fund, in full or in part, particular services for eligible persons does not mean that those services have to be provided by permanent public servants. Indeed, present thinking - and this applies to how the National Disability Insurance Scheme will operate - is that competitive outsourcing of many government services leads to both superior offerings and cost savings.

It would not be a surprise if the Queensland government were to give serious consideration to withdrawing the referral of its IR power to the commonwealth government. If Shorten is intent on interfering with the ability of the LNP government to rationalise and reform the public service on its own terms, such a move by the Queensland government makes sense.

The bottom line is the public service, both federally and in a number of states, has become too large and needs to be trimmed. In making the job cuts, it is also important for governments to analyse the rationale behind spending and to concentrate on those areas where there are very high net public benefits.
Experimentation with different means of delivering taxpayer-funded services should also be part of the mix.
 
The growth of the Qld Public Service under Labor has been ridiculously high as amaroo's figures show. Same thing has happened Federally where the numbers of spin doctors and the like in the PM's and Ministers' departments have grown at ridiculous rates. And don't forget that numbers are up because of the huge increase in red tape that Labor (with plenty of pressure from the Greens) have imposed on virtually everything. I recall one interview where a former Labor minister and now mining company director (sorry, can't remember his name) stated how oppressive it was that his company had to go through 1400 separate processes to satisfy all of the environmental and other requirements for new projects - and the time frame for achieving that went from around 2 years to over 5. That all creates demand for more public servants. No wonder productivity has declined in Aus.

It's what the ALP always do
 
Let's revisit that comment in 18 months if Abbot wins. People said the same thing when we voted in Newman ...
Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know? It does not sit too well with me to have a prime minister for 2 terms and they have not won an election yet. Personally I think they are both inadequate to be prime minister of our country but that is a decision we do not get to make.

Either way I think Abbott deserves a chance to show what Liberals have to offer. If they fail then at the next election Labour is back in with another leader. If they succeed then they get another chance at the next election.

I also think that Australia lost an opportunity for a good leader with Beazley but we will never find out. And I also think Costello would have also made a good leader but he never got a chance either.

As for Newman there should be a landslide defeat against him at the next election for the promises not
kept. Irrelevant who is the leader of the opposition as he has shown.

I do not think that either party can totally stuff up the solid position of our economy. And yes there will be dislikes with policies and decisions. Personally I cannot stand the carbon tax or even the flood levy that is imposed on my salary. Just because I earn more than the threshold does not mean I can afford either tax/levy.

I should really stay away from political discussions....
 
I did post a link....anyway here you go.

JUDITH SLOAN


A bloated public service not healthy



...
I have been impressed byJudith Sloan every time I have heard her speak. Very articulate and always presents logical and well considered arguments.
A perfect role model for girls/women with aspirations in business.
 
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The growth of the Qld Public Service under Labor has been ridiculously high as amaroo's figures show. Same thing has happened Federally where the numbers of spin doctors and the like in the PM's and Ministers' departments have grown at ridiculous rates. And don't forget that numbers are up because of the huge increase in red tape that Labor (with plenty of pressure from the Greens) have imposed on virtually everything. I recall one interview where a former Labor minister and now mining company director (sorry, can't remember his name) stated how oppressive it was that his company had to go through 1400 separate processes to satisfy all of the environmental and other requirements for new projects - and the time frame for achieving that went from around 2 years to over 5. That all creates demand for more public servants. No wonder productivity has declined in Aus.

It's interesting that you pick mining as an example. I have experienced first hand the reduction (attempted reduction) in mining red tape in one Australian state in combination with the Commonwealth Government. The biggest impediment to streamlining approvals in that process has been the Commonwealth Government, IME/O.

Amaroo's article doesn't really show that the growth has been ridiculously high. (ignoring that they are actually someone else's figures). What they show is that the health department, not the whole public service, has increased by 66 percent in 10 years. The quoted article refers to queensland population growth, but fails to mention the figure. A quick search suggests the growth was 23% over the last decade. The quoted article also doesn't seem to have mentioned or considered the aging population dynamic. What effect has that had, I wonder. Certainly I'd expect it to impact the Health Department in provision of services.

The other factor that I'm going to talk about in hand waving terms is the need to implement better governance in the health department. I do think that is a very important aspect of current health trends, the need to implement better systems. Remember also the Patel issue, that probably dragged in a heap of management/governance types. I have no idea of what effect this aspect would have, or how to measure it or even what is an appropriate number of management types. Just saying it is a factor that the article seems to have missed.

Then if we look at the figures in more detail.

10 years ago it was just under 7500/49000 so 15.3%. Now it is 18.75%. Is about 3 percent an unreasonable increase to account for the need, IMO, for better governance systems? I don't know. But it is a consideration.

It's what the ALP always do

I would hold up South Australia as an example that disproves your "always".

I did post a link....anyway here you go.

Yeah, sorry about not reading. The kids have used my internet quota so I'm mainly stuck using the phone for reading AFF when at home. (dragged out the 3G dongle for this). I think it is a pretty good article but as per above, I think there is more too it than has been canvassed.
 
IYeah, sorry about not reading. The kids have used my internet quota so I'm mainly stuck using the phone for reading AFF when at home. (dragged out the 3G dongle for this). I think it is a pretty good article but as per above, I think there is more too it than has been canvassed.

Which takes us back to the thread about Internet charges.
 
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Geez, I must need to get a life if I'm reading this thread so far out form Election Day.

so who here is wants to host Don's Party on election night and invite us all over.
 
Apart from the dismissal of Whitlam and the subesquent installing of Fraser, I can recall no election that has been pre-determined by anyone other than the PM. I only cite this example as I believe that Fraser was required to go to the polls as soon as possible to confirm the GGs decision - I may be mistaken.
Sir John Kerr was unconvinced that Gough Whitlam had a way to secure Supply. His advice of a Half-Senate election would have had no effect until 1977. So he sacked Whitlam and commissioned Fraser on the condition that Fraser secure Supply and advise an election. Which he did. In theory he could have let the election go hang, but he did not have the confidence of the Reps, and he knew he would win an election in a landslide. Which is why he'd delayed passing Supply in the first place. So even that election was advised by the PM.

The only time it is out of the PM's hands is when "through the effusion of time" three years and a month passes since the first sitting of the old Parliament, in which case the writs are issued, as per the Constitution.
 
Sir John Kerr was unconvinced that Gough Whitlam had a way to secure Supply. His advice of a Half-Senate election would have had no effect until 1977. So he sacked Whitlam and commissioned Fraser on the condition that Fraser secure Supply and advise an election. Which he did. In theory he could have let the election go hang, but he did not have the confidence of the Reps, and he knew he would win an election in a landslide. Which is why he'd delayed passing Supply in the first place. So even that election was advised by the PM.

The only time it is out of the PM's hands is when "through the effusion of time" three years and a month passes since the first sitting of the old Parliament, in which case the writs are issued, as per the Constitution.
Thank you for the clarification.
 
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