Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[medhead]

I don't care if the government "should" have been allowed to implement their Malaysian Solution. The High Court held a contrary opinion to the government, end of story. It was illegal.

The buck stops with the Prime Minister on this. She hasn't found any solution beyond welcoming them into the community.

The community will have a say on this later on, and regardless of any hand-waving here, I think we know exactly what that say will be.

You're talking about version one not version two.

You better quote the clause of the act that says it is illegal to claim asylum.

 

[drron]

Medhead time to move out of Utopia.
Even the most ardent supporter knows that the boats come out of Sri lanka and Indonesia.From sri lanka a number are being returned as they are not refugees.I dont know the proportion but you can do a google search as well as I.
Those arriving from Indonesia have travelled there first.To get admitted to Indonesia means they had Identity papers.They dont have them on arrival in Australia.Doesn't fit with simple refugees.Then they pay a relatively large amount of money to get here by boat.People smugglers only exist if there is a demand.
As to my reference for the 40000 your original reply to vetrade implies you took his 40000 to mean the boat arrivals.So my reference is relevant and and it is not just inference.

And Skyring has already shot down your Malaysian argument.The High court ruled that Abbott was right and Gillard wrong on that one.Besides it was only 800 that would be transferred to Malaysia.1058 have arrived on boats in the first 6 days of May.

 

[casanovawa]

Yes simongr, you probably are one of the few who don't care, all those things can be worked on AS WELL AS a workable solution for the asylum seeker issue, we had almost reached it several years ago before the incompetent know-it-alls got their hands on it.... Its costing us an extraordinary amount of money that could be better spent, and its a nasty place for most of the people caught in the system, but its so buggered now its gonna take a hell of a lot of fixing...

And the Malaysian solution was no solution at all, just a cobbbled together half @rsed attempt to get them out of the hole they had dug themselves... The courts struck it down, we would have sent what 900 up there for 4-5000 coming down... That 900 figure probably would have sufficed for a few weeks at the rate they are coming, then what would we do??? And then the biggest farce of all, did we end up agreeing to take the 4-5000 and sent none up there or did an ounce of common sense intervene at some point???

Yes, yes, lots of illegals coming on planes blah, blah.... They are two separate issues (and so comparing the two is a bit of a red herring), failing to fix the illegals/asylum seekers arriving by planes is no excuse for not fixing the asylum seekers coming by boat... Don't use one as the excuse for not fixing the other, fix them both!!! But be realistic that when several plane loads arrive each day you don't exactly have days and weeks to screen all 3-400 people coming off each one... There's probably a reason things are slightly different if you want to have a functioning transport/airline system...

 

[Pushka]

I don't care about the asylum seekers. I've said that before on this thread. And I am betting if our Government was not so deep in debt, many others wouldn't either.

I do care about poorly thought out policies, done without thinking of the consequences. Malaysia and Timor - cobbled together policy and in the case of Timor, not even consulting the PM. And Malaysia was never going to work.

 

[medhead]

Am I the only person in the country who doesn't care about the boats? I want to be focussed on strengthening the economy post mining boom, fixing infrastructure, reforming funding for the states, removing duplication across states and territories, reducing debt, maximising the advantage of a terms of trade surplus, encouraging the rebuilding of industry - I couldn't give a flying **** about the bloody boats.

+1

I don't care about people being here or not. But I do care that people die. It annoys me that there has been nothing but cheap political point scoring going on while people died. It annoys me that the people of Australia blindly blame the government and ignore the reality that bipartisan action should have been taken to try to stop people dying. Regardless of which is the better solution, the government should have been supported to implement their policy and stand or fall on that policy. All in the interests of saving lives not as a @$$& measuring competition.

As such I will continue to state my view that this is a failure of both sides in that parliament. And that's before I even get onto the pandering to the xenophobic racists in the Australian population.

 

[simongr]

Yes simongr, you probably are one of the few who don't care, all those things can be worked on AS WELL AS a workable solution for the asylum seeker issue, we had almost reached it several years ago before the incompetent know-it-alls got their hands on it.... Its costing us an extraordinary amount of money that could be better spent, and its a nasty place for most of the people caught in the system, but its so buggered now its gonna take a hell of a lot of fixing...

I maybe should not have been quite as black and white in my comment - I do think that they should have a better solution and the current solution is costing a fortune but this was such a huge issue in prior elections relative to bigger issues that the country faces that we aren't dealing with at all.

 

[Pushka]

How could any opposition support the Malaysia "solution". As for Timor, well, their own Government scotched that. Not much else left in the Labor think-tank.

 

[drron]

Right so 224 fires out of 1.7 million homes. And the fire incidence rate below the comparable pre-HIP incidence rate. Three deaths were caused by installers failing to follow set standards and one from heat exhaustion. That last one is an OHS issue which is covered by state legislation. Building standards are also covered by state legislation. Or are you suggesting that the federal government should have duplicated existing legislation? Lets ignore the constitutional issues of the commonwealth taking over state powers surely even you agree that duplication would be a bad thing.

As for the BER the State government administer the spending of that money. The value they obtained for state schools is entirely their problem. It's called self responsibility. Of course, perhaps we should follow the line of reasoning - clearly state governments cannot be allowed to build schools. Should the commonwealth government take over? Again ignore the constitutional issues.

Time to get the eyes checked Medhead.The rate of fires was above the pre-HIP rate and is NOW below that rate.

CSIRO's analysis of the HIP fire data demonstrates that the fire incident call out rate for HIP households is around 1.07 incidents per 100,000 households per annum (Note this analysis was completed using data as at 31 October 2011). The fire incident rate for HIP households is now below the comparable pre-HIP rate and continues to trend downwards.

And on your reasoning you will not hold Tony abbott to account for any decision his government makes concerning areas that are States responsibility such as health and education.I can already see the pigs flying past my window!!!!

 

[medhead]

Medhead time to move out of Utopia.
Even the most ardent supporter knows that the boats come out of Sri lanka and Indonesia.From sri lanka a number are being returned as they are not refugees.I dont know the proportion but you can do a google search as well as I.
Those arriving from Indonesia have travelled there first.To get admitted to Indonesia means they had Identity papers.They dont have them on arrival in Australia.Doesn't fit with simple refugees.Then they pay a relatively large amount of money to get here by boat.People smugglers only exist if there is a demand.

All of which supports my point. The Government should have been allowed to follow through with it's policy of setting up an offshore queue to deal with these people as appropriate to their circumstances. The ISSUE being raised here and by Abbott and co, is that people are arriving on a boat. That is interesting but irrelevant. What is important is how those people are dealt with once they are detained. As you say the dodgy ones are returned.

As to my reference for the 40000 your original reply to vetrade implies you took his 40000 to mean the boat arrivals.So my reference is relevant and and it is not just inference.

Really. I just do not agree. Perhaps have another read. I addressed 2 issues with my reply and it certainly does not imply as you claim. Arrivals is not the number being supported, it is an inference on your part.

the 40,000 illegals being fully supported by taxpayers etc etc,

It is not illegal to seek asylum. But don't let the facts get in the way of your Alan jones based world view. But do provide a reference to your 40000 figure, just for completeness.

And Skyring has already shot down your Malaysian argument.The High court ruled that Abbott was right and Gillard wrong on that one.Besides it was only 800 that would be transferred to Malaysia.1058 have arrived on boats in the first 6 days of May.

I guess you both conveniently forgot that the policy was revised after that court case. So you haven't shot anything down.

Yes, yes, lots of illegals coming on planes blah, blah.... They are two separate issues (and so comparing the two is a bit of a red herring),

The issue raised here and raised in the press and raised by the coalition is the NUMBER of arrivals and that people are coming here "illegally". The critisism is based on numbers and legality. So the number illegally arriving by plane is the same issue. Mode of arrival is irrelevant. And yet the those bashing this government only mention boats. It is gross hypocrisy.

And Malaysia was never going to work.

You've time travelled into that time line to see that it was never going to work? I'm glad to learn of your omnipresence.

 

[Pushka]

You've time travelled into that time line to see that it was never going to work? I'm glad to learn of your omnipresence.

For once I agreed with the Greens. And good that you've learnt something today too.

 

[lovestotravel]

There are legal ways to get into our Country and that's how everyone should arrive, end of story.

$2.2 Billion this year (12/13) to deal with boat arrivals, and then all the extra Centrelink costs to support them etc etc

Considering our budget is blowing out more each day, it would be far better to look after the people currently here who have to wait months/years for simple surgery before trying to save everyone else in the world

There are people who can't afford to pay bills, people who can't afford the dentist, yet we burn billions of $ a year on people arriving here illegally via boat...

 

[medhead]

Time to get the eyes checked Medhead.The rate of fires was above the pre-HIP rate and is NOW below that rate.

CSIRO's analysis of the HIP fire data demonstrates that the fire incident call out rate for HIP households is around 1.07 incidents per 100,000 households per annum (Note this analysis was completed using data as at 31 October 2011). The fire incident rate for HIP households is now below the comparable pre-HIP rate and continues to trend downwards.

And on your reasoning you will not hold Tony abbott to account for any decision his government makes concerning areas that are States responsibility such as health and education.I can already see the pigs flying past my window!!!!

Eyes are not the problem, reading and comprehension are the problems. Read the sentence I've highlighted, that's pretty definitive. As for your claim that the rate was above the pre-HIP rate. I've read your quote a few times, it definitely does not support your claim. Certainly it states a rate, but it does not compare that rate. The sentence where it says the rate is now below* infers that it was above. But I just can't not agree with your statement no matter how much I read the quote.

I'll hold any government responsible for their decisions but I'm not going to hold them responsible for someone else's failure. Especially when the constitution gives them very little abillity to control things.

*Now being in 2012.

 

[medhead]

For once I agreed with the Greens. And good that you've learnt something today too.

I'll call the ambulance. Never agree with those people. NEVER!

 

[Pushka]

I'll call the ambulance. Never agree with those people. NEVER!

At least when they say something, they mean it and will stick to it. Unlike Gillard, who must always have her fingers crossed behind her back whenever she promises something.

 

[casanovawa]

Of course there is an element of creating policy for different types of arrivals, what is there just one law in the book to punish all crimes and criminals is there or multiple laws and sentences for differing situations, motives etc?? That is simplistic BS...

Of course you need to address people arriving by planes and by boats differently as coming down to draconinanly on the arrivals by plane have the very real capacity to detrimentally impact on a lot of the genuine Australian public and visiting foreign tourists and business if you disrupted a relatively free flowing process of getting people through airports and customes.... Not many aussie citizens or genuine foreign tourists are going to be caught in the net of shanty boats rocking up on Christmas Island and so you can have a different process for addressing that issue...

But if they don't belong here i have no problems with taking a firm hand with them... Its not even perhaps the current elevated numbers of arrivals that is the problem, but ask places like Europe when it turns into a flood about whether its all just ho hum, other more important issues...

And i remember the Greens and Labor fiercely attacking the Howard govt over its asylum seeker seek policy and calling them every foul name under the sun... I guess the Libs had both houses so could give the back hand to most of these clueless types for at least part of their period in power... But to start coughping on about how a bi-partisan approach is what Labor deserved and should of got is a load of bollocks... What goes around comes around....

Plus any system he went along with, such as Malaysia, is what he would inherit, why would you saddle yourself with such policy garbage if you thought you were a genuine chance to be having to deal with its repercussions only a couple of years down the road???

 

[vetrade]

I didn't think you'd get the Monty Python reference.

Lets be honest. Mismanaged? Where's your reference to support that claim? I've only heard stories of mismanagement involving state government education departments. I've heard stories of private schools achieving great outcomes. It's not the federal government that mismanaged it based on what I've read.

How many houses burnt down? Again reference to support your claim.

It is not illegal to seek asylum. But don't let the facts get in the way of your Alan jones based world view. But do provide a reference to your 40000 figure, just for completeness.

Really Medhead you need to read a bit more yourself and not just ask for references like a prima donna acting as if all these things didn't even happen just because you are not conversant with them. The stories of houses burned down after insulation was incorrectly installed by shonky contractors (which Labor contracted to do the jobs with indecent haste because they were so keen to expedite the roll-out) were featured in all the major newspapers and even rated segments on Today Tonight and A Current Affair.

Mismanaged by Fed Labor? Absolutely!! Due to both incompetence and deliberate politicising of the process. Labor insisted that the money be used to build school halls even if the schools needed and requested classrooms or other facilities instead. There were several instances - one local to where I live (several friends of ours with kids at the school were livid about that) - where, due to space constraints, perfectly satisfactory buildings were demolished so they could be replaced by a new hall. This was done solely at the insistence of Fed Labor which set a variety of conditions on getting the money. One of those conditions was also that schools had to use designated contractors to design and build their schools, even though several schools (One was a Catholic school in Berwick I recall) provided documentation to show they could build the same facilities for, in some cases, for only 1/3 to 1/2 the cost the designated contractors quoted. This was Labor insisting on wasting money just so they could rush through the projects.

I used the word "illegals" deliberately - irrespective of your pedantics the reality is that most are not genuine asylum seekers (my opinion - so don't ask for a reference) so they are illegal. The fact that Labor loaded the review tribunal with sympathisers who are too soft on these people doesn't mean they are any less illegal in my estimation.

Herald Sun Tuesday 7th May 2013 (yesterday) Page 8 "Boats Keep Coming ..... Labor has topped 40,000 boat arrivals........."

 

[Skyring]

You're talking about version one not version two.

You better quote the clause of the act that says it is illegal to claim asylum.

1. It's not up to the Opposition to pass legislation. They don't have a majority in either house. It's the government who has the responsibility. They have failed to find a solution.

2. Claiming asylum and entering the nation are two different things. One may enter Australia illegally and then claim asylum legally. It is recognised that the process of claiming asylum and being accepted as a refugee may involve breaking laws - that's the way things go for refugees. It doesn't make the entry legal, but no authority is going to prosecute a genuine refugee for going outside the law to find safety.

 

[Skyring]

Yes, yes, lots of illegals coming on planes blah, blah....

Visa overstayers are no problem. They enter Australia with prior approval, are screened at the border and look after their ownselves. We don' have to pay for their housing, feeding, medical care or schooling. We know exactly who they are because we know their passport numbers and we know they haven't left.

They will turn up one day and be deported. No big deal.

 

[Skyring]

It annoys me that the people of Australia blindly blame the government...

I don't think anyone is being blind about it. I think Australians are blaming the government for making a hash of the situation. I think the people of Australia are going to make their feelings about the government's performance very clear indeed as soon as they get a chance to do so.

Calling people blind or stupid because they do not share one's own perceptions is no way to garner support. As we can see.

 

[medhead]

And the economic cost of visa overstayers? Taking jobs, not paying tax and using taxpayer funded facilities.

The hash of the situation has been aided and abetted by the coalition. And I'm not going to forget that even if everyone else does.