Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[Skyring]

And the economic cost of visa overstayers? Taking jobs, not paying tax and using taxpayer funded facilities.

Citation needed.

 

[medhead]

1. It's not up to the Opposition to pass legislation. They don't have a majority in either house. It's the government who has the responsibility. They have failed to find a solution.

2. Claiming asylum and entering the nation are two different things. One may enter Australia illegally and then claim asylum legally. It is recognised that the process of claiming asylum and being accepted as a refugee may involve breaking laws - that's the way things go for refugees. It doesn't make the entry legal, but no authority is going to prosecute a genuine refugee for going outside the law to find safety.

1. No but the opposition can support the governments solution, that they have found, with their votes. The opposition have instead chosen to play politics at the risk of people's life.

2. State the clause in the Act


3. I'm not here to gain anyone's support on this issue. I'm just stating the obvious that this issue is the subject of massive political shenanigans. I don't expect anyone to change their mind and the fact that they continue to ignore Abbott's role in this mess proves my view that they are blindly following his lead.

 

[medhead]

At least when they say something, they mean it and will stick to it. Unlike Gillard, who must always have her fingers crossed behind her back whenever she promises something.

There you go again ignoring the reality of minority government. Gillard does not have the ability to stand by her position. Unless you'd be happy to 3 years of do nothing. She campaigned on a platform and she has done her best to enact that platform within the restrains of the electoral result. You simply can not say it's my way or nothing in that situation.

It is interesting to compare and contrast the government's changing position to get action on boat arrivals vs the oppositions rigidity.

 

[Pushka]

If the minority Government means she can't govern properly then the only person who got her into that position is herself. By making deals with others on a desperate bid to hang on to power. The electorate needed another election.

 

[medhead]

If the minority Government means she can't govern properly then the only person who got her into that position is herself. By making deals with others on a desperate bid to hang on to power. The electorate needed another election.

That's just BS, it just doesn't work like that. If the ALP didn't form government then coalition would have done so. Then obstructionism by that opposition would have given us exactly the same outcome. I'd be really interested in your views if the 2 main parties were reversed and the ALP was saying no, no, no. Stop the boats!

Another election at that time would have been pointless. The electorate had spoken. Do you really think the answer would have been the different if we went back to vote again a week later?

 

[simongr]

Another election at that time would have been pointless. The electorate had spoken. Do you really think the answer would have been the different if we went back to vote again a week later?

I do think it would have been different.

 

[amaroo]

There you go again ignoring the reality of minority government. Gillard does not have the ability to stand by her position.

Bet you anything you want - minority government would have been easy to ignore if Gillard & Co didn't roll KRudd.

qui cough canibus concumbunt cough pulicibus surgent

 

[james4321]

That's just BS, it just doesn't work like that. If the ALP didn't form government then coalition would have done so. Then obstructionism by that opposition would have given us exactly the same outcome. I'd be really interested in your views if the 2 main parties were reversed and the ALP was saying no, no, no. Stop the boats!

Another election at that time would have been pointless. The electorate had spoken. Do you really think the answer would have been the different if we went back to vote again a week later?

You are 100% right medhead. If Abbott's sweeteners to the independents had been better than Gillard's then he would have been able to form Government. And he then would have been forced by those arrangements to "back flip" and "lie" and "compromise on policy" etc ie all the criticisms that have been flung at her. Likely that we would now have a 231 page thread with the names Abbott and Gillard, and ALP and Coalition in that thread in exactly opposite positions !!

 

[Skyring]

1. No but the opposition can support the governments solution, that they have found, with their votes. The opposition have instead chosen to play politics at the risk of people's life.

The government proposed legislation. Of course Oppositions may support government legislation, and they generally do, but there is no requirement to do so. The ALP has demonstrated this many times in Opposition by voting contrary to the Government. The Government may either find a compromise, look elsewhere for support - in this case the Greens and Independents - or make it an election issue as per s58.

Gillard chose none of those courses. Clearly she didn't want her own solution enough to go to the people. As you say, "with their votes."

 

[drron]

1. No but the opposition can support the governments solution, that they have found, with their votes. The opposition have instead chosen to play politics at the risk of people's life.

2. State the clause in the Act


3. I'm not here to gain anyone's support on this issue. I'm just stating the obvious that this issue is the subject of massive political shenanigans. I don't expect anyone to change their mind and the fact that they continue to ignore Abbott's role in this mess proves my view that they are blindly following his lead.

The Government gets it's legislation through with the aid of the Independents in the House and the Greens in the Senate whatever the Coalition decides.They could not get the Greens to back them.So why is it Tony Abbotts fault and not the Greens?Besides it was special legislation to sidestep the Court's decision that was Malaysian solution number 2.So would you support Tony abbott if he tried to legislate a High Court decision away?The sky is now full of pigs.
Just to remind you of the numbers-
File:BoatArrivals.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2009-2726 arrivals.
2010-6555 arrivals.
2011-4565 arrivals.
2012-17202 arrivals.

Malaysia scheme 1 or 2 was only to send 800 to Malaysia.Less than last week's arrivals.
Bringing up the subject of illegal immigrants arriving by plane is a nice try at diversion.As far as I am aware not 1 has died on attempting the air journey to Australia,over a 1000 on boats have.They also do not go on benefits when they disappear.

As to fires read this-

A CSIRO analysis found households at risk of fires from insulation installed under the $1200 rebate offer has fallen to 2.5 homes a year in every 100,000. Before the rebate, fires occurred in 2.4 homes a year out of every 100,000.

SAFETY checks ordered as a result of the notorious $2.5 billion home insulation program will be wound up because the government says the risk of household fires has returned to a normal level.
The Climate Change Minister, Greg Combet, said yesterday the government is expected to complete the 150,000 inspections it has promised for homes installed with pink batts under the scheme in next two months, and will not seek to do more

Read more: Safety checks for pink batt scheme to be wound up
Of course the rate of pre pink batt fires does not say if it includes uninsulated houses.
Your attempt to try and confuse the statistics has failed again.

 

[coyote25]

Am I the only person in the country who doesn't care about the boats? I want to be focussed on strengthening the economy post mining boom, fixing infrastructure, reforming funding for the states, removing duplication across states and territories, reducing debt, maximising the advantage of a terms of trade surplus, encouraging the rebuilding of industry - I couldn't give a flying **** about the bloody boats.

Totally agreed that this one issue overrides so much else we could and should be addressing. It's an issue but is it really this big?

At least this forum does cover NBN, disability scheme, budget issues but most of the comment section on major newspapers seem to only care about a group of desperate people (asylum worthily or not) trying to get to Australia risking there lives. At least we should discuss the must bigger problem of air arrival overstayers.

 

[RooFlyer]

<snip>

Another election at that time would have been pointless. The electorate had spoken. Do you really think the answer would have been the different if we went back to vote again a week later?

Not a week, but 17 days later, after listening to Oakshott supporting Jules, Sweet Jesus, Abbott would have won in a landslide.

 

[coyote25]

If the minority Government means she can't govern properly then the only person who got her into that position is herself. By making deals with others on a desperate bid to hang on to power. The electorate needed another election.

Minority government while rare in Australia isn't in a lot of other Parliamentary systems like UK, Greece or Italy. The worse the economy the more likely a minority or 'coalition : grand coalition' to form a government.

I wonder if our experience will make it less likely in the future. If so you need the vast majority of people to vote for major parties. New parties like United Australia gaining traction makes minority or 'coalition' governments of parties that weren't aligned more likely.

 

[amaroo]

Am I the only person in the country who doesn't care about the boats? I want to be focussed on strengthening the economy post mining boom, fixing infrastructure, reforming funding for the states, removing duplication across states and territories, reducing debt, maximising the advantage of a terms of trade surplus, encouraging the rebuilding of industry - I couldn't give a flying **** about the bloody boats.

Must be an Anglo Saxon thing BBC News - Queen's Speech: Immigration rules 'to be tougher'

 

[Pushka]

. Do you really think the answer would have been the different if we went back to vote again a week later?

Yes. I do. Especially if the voters of say Windsors electorate had any whiff that he might side with Labor.

 

[medhead]

drron sorry to say the number of people arriving by boat is always the issue raised in the papers, by the Alan Jones's, by the opposition and by all those attacking the government over this issue. Not people risking their life. By that standard the number arriving is the issue.

As for the greens you should be fully aware of my opinion about the greens. The issue here is the people who support the opposition and ignore their failure to put safety first over politics.

Not a week, but 17 days later, after listening to Oakshott supporting Jules, Sweet Jesus, Abbott would have won in a landslide.

Unfortunately, once that happened the minority government was formed.

Yes. I do. Especially if the voters of say Windsors electorate had any whiff that he might side with Labor.

If they got a whiff of that as per above minority government is formed. It's all done.

Fortunately, don't like the result is not a reason to hold another election. (Despite what the opposition tells us.) That's the type of thing dictators do.

 

[Pushka]

There wasn't a result from the election though. That is why it's called a minority government.

 

[RooFlyer]

There you go again ignoring the reality of minority government. Gillard does not have the ability to stand by her position. Unless you'd be happy to 3 years of do nothing. She campaigned on a platform and she has done her best to enact that platform within the restrains of the electoral result. You simply can not say it's my way or nothing in that situation.

You can say 'let's see what the people say' though can't you? I'm good, the people are with me, lets rub Abbotts nose in it with an election on the issues!

Urk. No, let's just keep breaking promises and commitments and hang on and hope something will crop up.

What was that platform she has done her best to enact, again meadhead?

All together now:

"There will be NO carbon tax under a Government I lead."

ROFL till the cows come home, or September, whichever comes first.

 

[Hvr]

There wasn't a result from the election though. That is why it's called a minority government.

But that is a result. The people of Australia voted and their preferred local members were elected.

That Julia was able to form and maintain a stable coalition is a feat that should be recognised as very well done. Tony offered huge "incentives" to some of the independents to form government with him but they declined.

They have been true to their word and supported the government in confidence motions etc so now we are in the stage of the electoral cycle where we are due for another election and it will be held with no fuss or bother.

By that I mean, in the appropriate timeframe according to established protocols. We are one of the few countries in the world that this happens and yet very few people from the conservative side of politics seem to acknowledge just how good Julia has been to do what form and hold the government together which Tony couldn't.

What this country desperately needs is a broad bipartisan view on where we want Australia to be in the next 50-100 years. The quarry will be dug and done soon with the great majority of profits not benefiting Australia in any way shape or form. However, the Australian taxpayer will have to pay to restore the land to a usable condition. So it may even be net loss in the end.

Nauru is virtually a failed state because they didn't plan and properly invest what is essentially windfall revenue. It could happen here if not properly addressed.

Climate change is happening despite the conservative side of politics denying it. It will adversely affect this country and the local region. When the little island nations are flooded will we deny it is happening (we are now) and denigrate the residents as illegal refugees (you can't be an illegal refugee Tony!)?

Or will we have a plan to identify, plan and maybe even properly exploit the opportunities that will eventuate from this coming crisis? If we don't start planning now we will be in dire trouble.

Is there a population policy? How many people are appropriate for Australia and where should they live? The cities are full. Yet regional development is seen as too hard and expensive.

In most cases the differences between Liberal and Labor are minor and philosophical, and even though legitimate, both parties should consider what is best for Australia rather than their backers.

I believe we are at a tipping point about the future of Australia with short focus politics (on both sides). Yet any long term plan, e.g. NBN is required to produce a result immediately. This perverts planning and often means a compromise on its implementation. Thank goodness the roll out of electricity was allowed to happen and wasn't seen as some new fangled fad.

How long did the Snowy Mountain scheme take to produce the first current of electricity?

I'll bet it was more than one election cycle? Yet it was a generational project that had immense benefit for the country and gave refugee workers a chance to contribute rather than be denigrated for wanting to come here.

We need business to contribute and make a fair profit rather than deliberately under quote and then gouge taxpayers through changes to contracts. They also need to say no it wont work or needs to be changed to be able to be integrated with other infrastructure.

A lot of their management is incompetent and is the cause of lower productivity. Unions and by definition employees need to realise (and be accepted as) partners in business rather than adversaries. After all it is to their benefit that the company succeeds.

If a company is a welfare leech (car companies I'm looking at you) then they're doing the wrong thing and need to improve. Management there has failed and we're now at the time where it is no longer acceptable to just blame the workers. The business model has failed, executives, you're paid a lot of money because you're supposedly brilliant business people, well start proving it or be sacked without multi-million dollar packages. You failed, you're fired just like your staff.

Does this country have politicians with the vision and foresight to actually lead Australia? None I can see on either side of politics at the moment.

So where to from here?

 

[amaroo]

So where to from here?

For a start - I think it will be a very long time before union heavies decide or have the opportunity to replace a PM!

What started (kevin 07) as a government of renewal and hope......turned out to be a "turd that won't flush" no matter how much you push the button.

Well, the turd - is about to be flushed!