Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[Pukka]

At a certain point, one simply cannot report that both leaders and their parties are exactly equivalent. The ABC, scrupulous on bias, is openly labelling the Rudd campaign a disaster, and nobody is pretending the past three years have been good ones.

Having said that, I don't know that Australia needs Tony, except insofar as he's the best choice on offer.

Well they certainly need a change that's for sure

 

[medhead]

Medhead - welcome back

Reality is you and I are a lot closer on these thoughts than we would care to admit.

I'll pull you up one one thing though.....

You're argument against Howard's tax cuts is only valid if Rudd/Gillard held spending constant, which they haven't. (Or if revenue stayed constant - which it didn't).

But by all means argue against Coalition spending - any spending by anyone is up for argument in my opinion.

Which is a reflection of the difficult economic times that the ALP government faced. Spend to stimulate the economy is the DS solution when facing recession. Anyone can argue about the targets of that spending, but the fact remains that Australia has had 22 years of continuous economic growth. That growth has benefits for the country, I'm sure.

One thing I cannot believe is there is now talk of Abbott cutting funding to vital infrastructure to afford things like PPL and Direct Action. One item is a rail link upgrade to Port Botany. The liberals are rating PPL in front of a more efficient link to one of our major export ports. Is an excessively expensive PPL really better than eliminating a bottle neck to the nations productivity?

 

[dfcatch]

Which is a reflection of the difficult economic times that the ALP government faced. Spend to stimulate the economy is the DS solution when facing recession. Anyone can argue about the targets of that spending, but the fact remains that Australia has had 22 years of continuous economic growth. That growth has benefits for the country, I'm sure.

One thing I cannot believe is there is now talk of Abbott cutting funding to vital infrastructure to afford things like PPL and Direct Action. One item is a rail link upgrade to Port Botany. The liberals are rating PPL in front of a more efficient link to one of our major export ports. Is an excessively expensive PPL really better than eliminating a bottle neck to the nations productivity?

These are excellent questions.

And the incoming government will have to make these priority determinations, and in three years the electorate will judge them on their performance.

In the meantime - I'm very much looking forward to the dramatic jump in business confidence that will occur on Sunday

 

[medhead]

These are excellent questions.

And the incoming government will have to make these priority determinations, and in three years the electorate will judge them on their performance.

In the meantime - I'm very much looking forward to the dramatic jump in business confidence that will occur on Sunday

So you support the liberals lying to the electorate? The electorate is more than capable of making a judgement now if the liberals decided to come clean. After 3 years they can't even produce a costed budget and they sure as hell don't need to be in government to do that. This is the fundamental reason that the coalition does not deserve a go. They are still engaged in hiding things and being economical with the truth.

The incoming government has already made these priority decisions. The fact that they are hiding them is not good for the country. Business confidence will mean nothing when Abbott slashes spending on infrastructure and productivity to pay for his PPL.

At least the first lie will be exposed when Abbott forms minority government.

 

[drron]

Right they never means tested the private health insurance rebate. Ok then, you tell yourself that if it makes you feel better.

Now talk to me about Abbott's ppl

Medhead I gave you more credit than that.The PHI rebate is a tax rebate.It is not government spending.Though I grant you if you use Waynespeak It is government spending.But in the Real World the rebate means that cutting the rebate increases the Government's tax take not a reduction in Government spending.
Personally cutting the rebate will have little effect on me.But that is because of my profession.So I don't comment on that subject.

I guess you also feel the changes in the FBT on cars was a reduction in government spending tone result is the Salvation army will be paying an extra $4 million in tax per year.Good to see the ALP targeting those multi millionaires.

 

[Pukka]

So you support the liberals lying to the electorate? The electorate is more than capable of making a judgement now if the liberals decided to come clean. After 3 years they can't even produce a costed budget and they sure as hell don't need to be in government to do that. This is the fundamental reason that the coalition does not deserve a go. They are still engaged in hiding things and being economical with the truth.

The incoming government has already made these priority decisions. The fact that they are hiding them is not good for the country. Business confidence will mean nothing when Abbott slashes spending on infrastructure and productivity to pay for his PPL.

At least the first lie will be exposed when Abbott forms minority government.

I think they do need to be in government to produce a costed budget who knows what skeletons are in the governments closet.

And lol minority government you really are dreaming if you think that's going to happen. No chance

 

[cove]

Having been a Board Member of a not for profit organization I can say I think Rudd should have sought advice on this FBT change. We have always helped the Salvos so I noticed that cost that they announced.

 

[footy99]

At Father's Day breakfast good to see they have some nice unbiased "journalism" to read lol
View attachment 18561

This is the most worrying aspect of the whole election.


It is one thing for an individual to work out the programs underpinning news and current affairs reporting. They realise at the base of it all is fear and polarisation (with victim vs perpetrator being the sweet spot linking the two). That comes from a deep understanding of human psychology and millenia of refinement. It is designed to get people to watch/read/listen. That's it. The people get their irrational fears, victimhood delusions and manipulated opinions validated and even emphasised as being very important. In return, the news bosses get money and public influence. That's it. The notion that it is a public service or in any way useful to Joe Bloggs is a very convenient and powerful delusion that keeps it relevant in the minds of the populous.


The next evolution is to use peoples' addictions to these emotional quick-fixes they get from surrounding themselves with news and current affairs to push an agenda. People with an addiction don't just stop when they realise something is wrong. Rationality is pointless. As long as we feed the irrational fears and victimhood delusions and give them a way to feel right about issues we tell them are important, we can combine any agenda we like. They'll devour it like pigs to the trough. We might as well ensure the people they believe run the country are the ones that maximise our interests.


The final stage is complete media saturation with one side of a two-sided debate. This only works for a very brief period before the populous gets fed up. So we have to make it count in our limited window. The total saturation is intense enough to feel like Jonestown but it doesn't have to end the same way. It will all return to 'normal' when we get our way.


In a beautiful post-script, the people who benefit the most from our agenda are the only ones vested with the power to legislate against it! To do so would be to sacrifice everything they have strived to achieve. Buggar...

 

[wmetz]

As for charities complaining about the FTB changes, well do they realise Tony is not going to change it back. As for the private hospital rebate changes, do people realise Tony not going to change them back. As to the baby bonus, do people realise that Tony not going to change them back.

All three items have become a massive burn on federal revenues. It was Mr Tony and Cosoi and friends, that introduced these items, which any future long economist would know they would be an unfunded. You should thank Julia and Kevin for getting rid of these things. But doing the right thing doesnt win votes. I guess
the next time there is a melt down, If I was a Lab member, I just tell voters, eat cake. Lose your jobs and house like everyone else did around the world.

 

[medhead]

Medhead I gave you more credit than that.The PHI rebate is a tax rebate.It is not government spending.Though I grant you if you use Waynespeak It is government spending.But in the Real World the rebate means that cutting the rebate increases the Government's tax take not a reduction in Government spending.
Personally cutting the rebate will have little effect on me.But that is because of my profession.So I don't comment on that subject.

I guess you also feel the changes in the FBT on cars was a reduction in government spending tone result is the Salvation army will be paying an extra $4 million in tax per year.Good to see the ALP targeting those multi millionaires.

Maybe English language usage is getting in the way. But for me, when I give someone money that means I'm spending. In the same way when the government gives a health insurance company money that is called spending.

The government has income, ie tax collected, and expenditure, money paid out eg rebates. In the phi rebate case, the government will collect the same amount of tax (all things being equal) and pay out less to health insurance companies. They have cut spending.

The fbt changes collect more tax. So sorry no it is not a cut in spending. As for the Salvos, they just need to keep a logbook. Not hard really. No doubt they'll also keep their FBT status as a PBI, which provides significant benefits.

 

[medhead]

I think they do need to be in government to produce a costed budget who knows what skeletons are in the governments closet.

And lol minority government you really are dreaming if you think that's going to happen. No chance

It's called the PBO there are no surprises. The can provided a cost budget for the policies they are proposing.

The Liberals will be forming a minority government. Absolutely guaranteed. In case you've forgotten neither the liberals nor the nationals will hold enough seats to form a majority government. Sorry to burst your bubble but Abbott is lying to say otherwise.

 

[amaroo]

As for charities complaining about the FTB changes, well do they realise Tony is not going to change it back. As for the private hospital rebate changes, do people realise Tony not going to change them back. As to the baby bonus, do people realise that Tony not going to change them back.

These things happen......no different to the GST that Labor inherited.

 

[Pushka]

On 6th August Abbott confirmed his commitment to reversing the FBT decision and Carbon tax. Has that changed?
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-06/tony-abbott-reaffirms-commitment-to-reverse-fbt/4867682

And the GST was part of an election pledge so hardly the same.

 

[Pukka]

It's called the PBO there are no surprises. The can provided a cost budget for the policies they are proposing.

The Liberals will be forming a minority government. Absolutely guaranteed. In case you've forgotten neither the liberals nor the nationals will hold enough seats to form a majority government. Sorry to burst your bubble but Abbott is lying to say otherwise.

Ok so it's a minority government but not as we know it so to speak and I can guarantee that Joe Hockey is going to be claiming that the books are far worse than we were led to believe but you will think he's lying?

 

[medhead]

Ok so it's a minority government but not as we know it so to speak and I can guarantee that Joe Hockey is going to be claiming that the books are far worse than we were led to believe but you will think he's lying?

It's a minority government exactly as we know it.

The charter of budget honesty and the PBO mean hockey will be lying. He has all the information before the election. The fact that you continue to support such an out dated mode of thinking speaks volumes. But then you also think being taxed is a disincentive to earn money.

The fact that there was just about no change between the mini budget after Rudd came in an the update a week later after the election was called has already shown hockey to be a liar. What was his claim alp losing $1 billion a week, yet one week and there was virtually no change.

 

[drron]

Medhead a rebate is not paid out by the government.It just means less tax paid by the taxpayer.In the years that I did get the rebate I often ended up paying more tax after submitting my return so the Government did not pay out anything in giving me the rebate.And if memory serves me correctly and the CRAFT disease is not too advanced I declared up front to my insurer whether I would be claiming the rebate.

 

[amaroo]

And the GST was part of an election pledge so hardly the same.

The point being the ALP didn't flick it when they walked into the executive suites. Over the electoral cycle one party does the hard yards in terms of implementing policy and the other gets to enjoy the benefits.

This time around the Libs/Nat will get to enjoy some benefits of recent ALP changes.

 

[drsmithy]

I guess you also feel the changes in the FBT on cars was a reduction in government spending too. One result is the Salvation army will be paying an extra $4 million in tax per year

Does not compute.

If there is a legitimate business reason for the vehicle, there is no change other than some trivial logbook keeping.

 

[Pukka]

It's a minority government exactly as we know it.

The charter of budget honesty and the PBO mean hockey will be lying. He has all the information before the election. The fact that you continue to support such an out dated mode of thinking speaks volumes. But then you also think being taxed is a disincentive to earn money.

The fact that there was just about no change between the mini budget after Rudd came in an the update a week later after the election was called has already shown hockey to be a liar. What was his claim alp losing $1 billion a week, yet one week and there was virtually no change.

Being taxed is a disincentive to earn money if its over and above what you need to fund your bills. When I came to Australia I had that typical UK work 5 days + attitude then someone said what value do you put on a day off and the penny dropped.

I'm lucky enough to live in a part of Australia that many people choose for their holidays so I only work 3-4 days a week and in reality I'd be paying virtually half what I earn in tax ( for that day ) if I worked an extra day so yes for me it's a disincentive but everyone's different.

 

[drsmithy]

I'm lucky enough to live in a part of Australia that many people choose for their holidays so I only work 3-4 days a week and in reality I'd be paying virtually half what I earn in tax ( for that day ) if I worked an extra day so yes for me it's a disincentive but everyone's different.

You work 3-4 days a week, earn over $180k, and have trouble paying your bills ?