Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[medhead]

I'm just glad my kids are grown up and we don't pay fees anymore. I guess mortgage payments are way down but utilities, medicines and other costs are way up. And then there's vet bills. Which is way off topic but the cost of vet services is eye watering.

I stopped going to the vet when they sent the cat a letter about it's next check up, reminding the cat to bring a urine sample. WTF!! Who did they think was going to stick their hand underneath the cat to collect that sample. Not to mention it was still half wild at that stage having just wandered into our yard and been adopted, after living rough for a few years. Yep shredded hand, covered in biological waste - just what I need.

 

[casanovawa]

There shouldn't really be a question that the halls etc were well built, the question is did we really need to spend $16 billion on it all??? I guess in rushed government splurging of money the quality can actually fall, ala the home insulation, so that just becomes a double fail... I wonder how many of the school projects didn't live up to expectations?? Did they do a review of the BER or whatever it was called?

But while a nice school hall, tuck shop, library etc would be welcome by most schools, if you don't have the money for it, you don't have the money for it... Wonder how much it will all end up costing once you factor in the interest bill??

And i hate to go back to the old "When i was a boy" thing about funding for education, but how on earth did the world get so far without all this spending, i would like to know the comparative cost per child say 20 years ago to now? I think many leftie types think that the secret to achieving everything is more government funding/largesse... I can't help thinking a large slice of self motivation, determination, vision, standards etc is the secret ingredient and i'm not sure truckloads of cash poured out can buy you that... That's always the question at the back of my mind when hearing about the billions of dollars of Gonski etc...

 

[Pushka]

I stopped going to the vet when they sent the cat a letter about it's next check up and reminding the cat to bring a urine sample. WTF!! Who did they think was going to stick their hand underneath the cat to collect that sample. Not to mention it was still have wild at that stage having just wandered into our yard and been adopted, after living rough for a few years. Yep shredded hand, covered in biological waste - just what I need.

[Wise move. Ours is wild too, You know how to collect it? Empty the kitty litter tray and they pee in it anyway. Then syringe out the contents. It actually works.]

Several schools in SA have closed in the last few years, but they have shiny new spanking Halls courtesy of Julia.

Pete isn't aging well, is he!

 

[medhead]

There shouldn't really be a question that the halls etc were well built, the question is did we really need to spend $16 billion on it all??? I guess in rushed government splurging of money the quality can actually fall, ala the home insulation, so that just becomes a double fail... I wonder how many of the school projects didn't live up to expectations?? Did they do a review of the BER or whatever it was called?

But while a nice school hall, tuck shop, library etc would be welcome by most schools, if you don't have the money for it, you don't have the money for it... Wonder how much it will all end up costing once you factor in the interest bill??

And i hate to go back to the old "When i was a boy" thing about funding for education, but how on earth did the world get so far without all this spending, i would like to know the comparative cost per child say 20 years ago to now? I think many leftie types think that the secret to achieving everything is more government funding/largesse... I can't help thinking a large slice of self motivation, determination, vision, standards etc is the secret ingredient and i'm not sure truckloads of cash poured out can buy you that... That's always the question at the back of my mind when hearing about the billions of dollars of Gonski etc...

I'm not saying whether the school hall was well built or not, but whether we got something useful from that money. Certainly the school hall at our school is useful for both the school and the community. It would certainly be interesting to see an assessment of performance for the whole project.

However, on the bigger question you raised, all you're talking about is varying the timing. Look whats happening now, look at the current economic talk. Economic activity is (supposedly) drying up, the government's "income" is drying up. We'd could very well be suffering this same problem 3 or 4 years ago without the spending. The money would have been spent not on school halls but on making up the shortfall in tax receipts. Sure, it's pointless to speculate on what would have happened, but regardless we were going to suffer pain like the rest of the world. But it is probably also worth trying to minimise that pain.???

Still you have a good point about what happened years ago. How is it that private schools survived years ago without government funding? for example.

 

[casanovawa]

I have no problem in looking at multiple instances of how we used to do things to see if lessons can be learnt...

I still stand by some of the issues in society, whether in schools or general behavioural issues within society weren't caused by a lack of money and won't necessarily be solved by dolling out cash... Plenty of people from disadvantaged backgrounds and circumstances have achieve great things and there have been plenty of wealthy, born with a silver spoon failures... Unfortunately its very hard to legislate community standards, vision, ambition etc and hard to buy them as well...

And i think from an economic side of things plenty of people, including the media, get hung up on recessions and a couple of quarters of negative growth.. Yes we avoided a recession back in 2008 or 2009 whenever it was, but if we might have only dipped technically into a short recession with a small negative growth figure for one of the quarters, did it require so much spending to avoid that and so much pain that will be involved in paying it back? Its a what if, as it might be for the future... We saw how fixated this govt recently became upon achieving a budget surplus to the exclusion of some level of reason... Getting fixated on achieving things without looking at the options/consequences rationally and calmly usually doesn't lead to great decisions... I do give them a bit of leeway as it was a bit of a stampede back then with some pretty disturbing things occurring internationally, but $16 billion was not a small figure...

And they chose to build things rather than literary programs as building and construction was seen to have a good multiplier factor to get the most value out of pumping $16 billion into the economy and having it circulate rather than achieving the best outcomes for students...

 

[Pukka]

There shouldn't really be a question that the halls etc were well built, the question is did we really need to spend $16 billion on it all??? I guess in rushed government splurging of money the quality can actually fall, ala the home insulation, so that just becomes a double fail... I wonder how many of the school projects didn't live up to expectations?? Did they do a review of the BER or whatever it was called?

But while a nice school hall, tuck shop, library etc would be welcome by most schools, if you don't have the money for it, you don't have the money for it... Wonder how much it will all end up costing once you factor in the interest bill??

And i hate to go back to the old "When i was a boy" thing about funding for education, but how on earth did the world get so far without all this spending, i would like to know the comparative cost per child say 20 years ago to now? I think many leftie types think that the secret to achieving everything is more government funding/largesse... I can't help thinking a large slice of self motivation, determination, vision, standards etc is the secret ingredient and i'm not sure truckloads of cash poured out can buy you that... That's always the question at the back of my mind when hearing about the billions of dollars of Gonski etc...

My 11 year old sons school got a new classroom for about $500k unfortunately they didn't think air conditioning was essential (NSW far north coast) so they have a thermometer and when it gets to 32 they all move to the gym for lessons!!

Not money well spent in my opinion

 

[Pushka]

I recall too it wasn't allowed to be spent on gymnasiums. So schools with a hall already ended up with two.

And the computer for every child initiative. Where schools got laptops but which did not include software like Office and schools couldn't afford the licences to use them. Esp when they were already using a different platform.

At least no one died in that poorly thought through plan. We doesn't she consult with the plebs to see what their needs are and truly make a difference.

Ah Julia, the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Hvr]

<snip>

Ah Julia, the gift that keeps on giving.

Yes I agree, Liberal party sycophants will revel in their hatred forever which will excuse them from doing anything for the next two election cycles. Howard era MkII is coming.

Look out for Workchoices, fraudband (wasn't too long ago that wireless was going to be best thing since sliced bread) and other Howard era policies. Wonder if Tony has some green Australian track suits he can wear when watching the sports? Although I will concede he will play a few and wear his red budgie smugglers.

I will admit I was surprised when I saw that the Pope gave Tony permission to support RU486 on the PBS.

 

[medhead]

I recall too it wasn't allowed to be spent on gymnasiums. So schools with a hall already ended up with two.

You sure? Our school got a gymnasium, 2 basketball courts heaps of sports equipment.

And the computer for every child initiative. Where schools got laptops but which did not include software like Office and schools couldn't afford the licences to use them. Esp when they were already using a different platform.

I'd blame Microsoft for that. Not sure what would stop them installing open source stuff.

At least no one died in that poorly thought through plan.

If you're referring to the insulation scheme. At least one of the deaths that I heard about was caused by failure to adhere to building standard in construction of the house. Specifically incorrect placement of wiring. That is a state government or local council problem. It is not the commonwealth governments fault if the local council have completely failed to do their job.

My 11 year old sons school got a new classroom for about $500k unfortunately they didn't think air conditioning was essential (NSW far north coast) so they have a thermometer and when it gets to 32 they all move to the gym for lessons!!

Not money well spent in my opinion

Completely off topic. But that is totally soft. I did my entire education in Queensland, SE and FNQ, without any air conditioning. In that environment all that's required is a fan and decent airflow. And who comes up with a 32 cut off without any consideration of humidity?

 

[Pushka]

Medhead. You can hardly call someone soft for having issues about no air conditioning on one hand but then state how wonderful it is to have a school hall. We didn't have such things in my day either.

 

[medhead]

Medhead. You can hardly call someone soft for having issues about no air conditioning on one hand but then state how wonderful it is to have a school hall. We didn't have such things in my day either.

What? The 2 are related how? I have certainly not made any connection between those separate things.

But yes I can call them soft over no A/C in a class room. That is totally unrelated to my opinion that our school got a good school hall.

 

[Pukka]

You sure? Our school got a gymnasium, 2 basketball courts heaps of sports equipment.



I'd blame Microsoft for that. Not sure what would stop them installing open source stuff.



If you're referring to the insulation scheme. At least one of the deaths that I heard about was caused by failure to adhere to building standard in construction of the house. Specifically incorrect placement of wiring. That is a state government or local council problem. It is not the commonwealth governments fault if the local council have completely failed to do their job.



Completely off topic. But that is totally soft. I did my entire education in Queensland, SE and FNQ, without any air conditioning. In that environment all that's required is a fan and decent airflow. And who comes up with a 32 cut off without any consideration of humidity?

Oh I'm sure there's a study somewhere that's looked into optimum working conditions for kids things have moved on.

When I was at school the chemistry teacher used to think it was a good idea to put a ball of Mercury on the kids hands and watch it roll around. These days a drop of Mercury would mean calling out a hazmat team and emptying the classroom.

Amazing we all survived really

 

[wmetz]

At a time when every other western country had massive unemployment increases, today you still complaining about the government school building program that kept the building and construction industry from collapse. The mining and housing industry where losing jobs. So the choice was spend billions on unemployment benefits and lose years of new skilled trainees from the industry, or get people out and working. Furthermore, wasn't there something about a family having working parents that encourages the children in the future to work, or create generations of unskilled and unemployed citizens. Real what would you prefer.

Also, not one person I met who got the government help to insulate their roof or get cheap solar power has raised one complaint about it, as they know they got something for nothing and now getting the benefits of not paying high electricity or heating/cooling bills.


Where the fault lies, read today's paper where the problem got back to the last lib gov we had. They sold the farm, and got high tax receipts from over priced minerals. The problem then was not using that money to invest in infrastructure, but give tax cuts to high end groups, and also allow them to double dip with tax rebates. So people today complain about the mining tax and carbon tax. If people are not paying income tax, which was governments primary base of revenue, and people would march in the street if the GST was raised (or all exemptions such as on food were removed), then the government has to raise revenue from new sources. So if I hear one more person complain that their family earning $240,000 + a year now has to pay their own private health insurance, well I have a answer, leave. So which person has made the tough decisions JULIA, and not mr tony.

 

[Pushka]

Of course they are related. If you say kids don't need air conditioned classrooms but a gym is a worthy spend? I think the priorities are upside down.

 

[chrisb]

Of course they are related. If you say kids don't need air conditioned classrooms but a gym is a worthy spend? I think the priorities are upside down.

Air Conditioning a classroom sends the bulk of the money to China & Japan to purchase the aircon units.

Building something employs local architects, planners, builders, electricians, etc and probably uses locally produced concrete, bricks, tiles, steel, glass, etc. It also enhances the school for decades to come and offers them something that might generate revenue.

So from the point of view of supporting the economy building is a good thing. From a purely educational point of view, maybe the aircon is a better idea.

 

[SFSC]

Also, not one person I met who got the government help to insulate their roof or get cheap solar power has raised one complaint about it, as they know they got something for nothing and now getting the benefits of not paying high electricity or heating/cooling bills.

Indeed. We are very happy with our insulation job.

Sometimes with this sort of thing I think it is necessary to take on a little bit of ownership of the process yourself. We selected firms to quote who we knew had been in insulation before the scheme started rather than just get a quote plus a couple of higher dummy quotes from some fly-by-nighter.

To blame the government for deaths caused by some insulation installers infringing workplace safety laws (and acting outside plain common sense in some instances) is like blaming the most junior Harland and Wolff apprentice boilermaker for the sinking of the Titanic.

 

[Pushka]

Air Conditioning a classroom sends the bulk of the money to China & Japan to purchase the aircon units.

Building something employs local architects, planners, builders, electricians, etc and probably uses locally produced concrete, bricks, tiles, steel, glass, etc. It also enhances the school for decades to come and offers them something that might generate revenue.

So from the point of view of supporting the economy building is a good thing. From a purely educational point of view, maybe the aircon is a better idea.

That's not true. Bonaire Units are designed and manufactured in Australia. We have one in our house. I am certain they could have done with the business.

 

[11sjw]

Yes I agree, Liberal party sycophants will revel in their hatred forever which will excuse them from doing anything for the next two election cycles. Howard era MkII is coming.

Try the next two generations. That's how long it will take to pay off the debt.

Look out for Workchoices, fraudband (wasn't too long ago that wireless was going to be best thing since sliced bread) and other Howard era policies. Wonder if Tony has some green Australian track suits he can wear when watching the sports? Although I will concede he will play a few and wear his red budgie smugglers.

I will admit I was surprised when I saw that the Pope gave Tony permission to support RU486 on the PBS.

Tony has distanced himself from Workchoices but I hope it's not done with the same oxygen that KRudd used to construct the "I'm an Economic Conservative" line. That stuff is fraud inducing.

 

[Pushka]

Love it (not really) how the people in here are branded as sycophants just because they can outline the ways in which the Gillard Government has messed up. Is sycophant the word that men use instead of misogynist to somehow try to deflect scrutiny of poor policy?

 

[Pukka]

At a time when every other western country had massive unemployment increases, today you still complaining about the government school building program that kept the building and construction industry from collapse. The mining and housing industry where losing jobs. So the choice was spend billions on unemployment benefits and lose years of new skilled trainees from the industry, or get people out and working. Furthermore, wasn't there something about a family having working parents that encourages the children in the future to work, or create generations of unskilled and unemployed citizens. Real what would you prefer.

Also, not one person I met who got the government help to insulate their roof or get cheap solar power has raised one complaint about it, as they know they got something for nothing and now getting the benefits of not paying high electricity or heating/cooling bills.


Where the fault lies, read today's paper where the problem got back to the last lib gov we had. They sold the farm, and got high tax receipts from over priced minerals. The problem then was not using that money to invest in infrastructure, but give tax cuts to high end groups, and also allow them to double dip with tax rebates. So people today complain about the mining tax and carbon tax. If people are not paying income tax, which was governments primary base of revenue, and people would march in the street if the GST was raised (or all exemptions such as on food were removed), then the government has to raise revenue from new sources. So if I hear one more person complain that their family earning $240,000 + a year now has to pay their own private health insurance, well I have a answer, leave. So which person has made the tough decisions JULIA, and not mr tony.

Spoken like someone who doesn't earn $240k a year

I think you'll find that Australia would be worse off if all those earning that amount left. You should be thanking those that pay lots of tax not telling them to leave.

Anyway bring on Mr Tony.