Passenger Forcibly Removed From Overbooked UA Flight

[Quickstatus]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

In Trump's America, sending a message seems to be the thing. The message being sent to passengers is "do everything right, and we'll still beat the cough out of you".

Its been happening for many years now in Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush, Obama, Obama's America.
The police there have a habit of pulling recalcitrant car drivers out of the door window even if the car door is open. The commoditisation of airline travel have turned passengers into "self loading freight". To be mostly loathed. Its the only industry where the customer is always wrong.

The consequences of these presumably "must fly" crew not getting to their aircraft in the next port would have been more than $4000. ($1000 each). As it was United's problem then it should have increased its offer. Id dare say $5000 each would have got many passengers. And the airline would be still ahead in financial terms. What United did was to hide behind an appearance of a recalcitrant passenger in order to minimise its own disruption and greater financial cost.

The 4 crew were not the only ones who must fly. The fact that every passenger did not volunteer also suggests that they too must fly. It is an arrogant airline to believe that the urgency of their crew getting to their destination is greater than any passenger on that flight.

 

[NoName]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

I keep reading that this was the last flight of the night. Was it really? Isn't UA3411 a 5:40pm departure or thereabouts? Flightaware is telling me that UA4771 departed at 8:55pm. Additionally AA3509 departed at 6:40pm. If they'd managed to get 3 out of 4 pax off the 5:40pm flight then surely common sense would tell them to either book the other FA on the AA flight and failing that try to get a pax off the 8:55pm flight?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

It's interesting reading some of your responses. We don't know the full story by any means.

But, needing to move a crew at short notice happens. I've even seen aircraft, that have already departed the gate, brought back to pick up some crew that were in a 'must fly' situation. Invariably that means that if they don't get to where they are going, there will be subsequent cancellations of one (or more) services. Same really applies to the comments about driving them to their next port. If they have to operate, that will be part of their duty time, and will almost certainly result in the duty being curtailed.

They were not necessarily a standby crew, nor was there necessarily plenty of notice. They may have just finished a flight, and been planning on going home, when grabbed for another duty elsewhere. That could be forced by any number of factors.

I'm sure it could have been handled better. But, once he outright refused the crew instruction, he simply wasn't going to fly. Digging heals in never works well in any situation.

It may be in the airline's financial interests to fly the crew immediately, but there's no legal basis for 'must fly'.

Airlines don't operate above the law.

Digging in heals has got the publicity this deserves... that airlines can't just demand whatever they want, issue unlawful instructions, and expect police to enforce it when the police have no basis to do so. If airlines continue to be allowed to get away with this, nothing will change.

 

[Denali]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

.... The message being sent to passengers is "do everything right, and we'll still beat the cough out of you".

I would think that once he refused to comply with airline and security staff instructions, pretty sure hes no longer "doing everything right".

.... If we have a wedding, a job interview, a sick elderly relative or some other time-critical reason for flying, are we going to be compliant with a random request to leave our seat when we have done nothing wrong?.....

If anything I have learned from AFF, is that delays/screw ups can happen and have a plan B and be prepared to sort it out independently.

If me being somewhere is important, connecting flights ect. I have a plan and credit card for just in case. Other airlines, other departures, car hire ect - to get where I have to be. Once this guy said "nope, not moving", that triggered a 'Oh, hell no' path with airline & security staff. Even if I absolutely had to be on that flight, I know in todays environment to not push airline/security staff.

If I was in this situation? I would have asked about them paying for a driver service to get where I had to go or pay for it myself and then either worry about insurance later or begrudgingly write it off as never fly with them again.

Life is too short to be left bloodied and dragged down an airline aisle over a bad Y domestic seat when home is a 5hr car drive away.

 

[njba]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

It's interesting reading some of your responses. We don't know the full story by any means.

But, needing to move a crew at short notice happens. I've even seen aircraft, that have already departed the gate, brought back to pick up some crew that were in a 'must fly' situation. Invariably that means that if they don't get to where they are going, there will be subsequent cancellations of one (or more) services. Same really applies to the comments about driving them to their next port. If they have to operate, that will be part of their duty time, and will almost certainly result in the duty being curtailed.

They were not necessarily a standby crew, nor was there necessarily plenty of notice. They may have just finished a flight, and been planning on going home, when grabbed for another duty elsewhere. That could be forced by any number of factors.

I'm sure it could have been handled better. But, once he outright refused the crew instruction, he simply wasn't going to fly. Digging heals in never works well in any situation.

As usually your prospective brings something really valuable to the discussion. Would you as captain expect to be notified of something like this happening, or is your focus solely on the pre-flight process? I could certainly imagine the system is that you trust the crew to handle this and you focus on the bigger picture.

As a consumer it's fascinating that my 'must fly' is never going to be an airline's 'must fly.' Surely cutting crew numbers to the absolutely minimum—such that in the entire national system of company with USD36B in revenue there was no other possible resource—is what has partially gotten us in this mess.

Lean and agile, indeed.

 

[njba]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

I would think that once he refused to comply with airline and security staff instructions, pretty sure hes no longer "doing everything right".

It's a sad picture you paint; where we just have to go along with whatever a corporation tells us to do, regardless of what is just or fair or reasonable.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just pointing out how very sad that is: where a doctor in attempting to follow their duty of care to their patients is abused and vilified by a corporation because he didn't jump on command.

 

[Skyring]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

I would think that once he refused to comply with airline and security staff instructions, pretty sure he's no longer "doing everything right".

I made the point twice over that he was provoked. Pick a random person in the street and start poking him, he'll eventually poke you back.

If anything I have learned from AFF, is that delays/screw ups can happen and have a plan B and be prepared to sort it out independently.

If me being somewhere is important, connecting flights ect. I have a plan and credit card for just in case. Other airlines, other departures, car hire ect - to get where I have to be. Once this guy said "nope, not moving", that triggered a 'Oh, hell no' path with airline & security staff. Even if I absolutely had to be on that flight, I know in todays environment to not push airline/security staff.

If I was in this situation? I would have asked about them paying for a driver service to get where I had to go or pay for it myself and then either worry about insurance later or begrudgingly write it off as never fly with them again.

Life is too short to be left bloodied and dragged down an airline aisle over a bad Y domestic seat when home is a 5hr car drive away.

Please bend over, pull down the strides, let security poke around, it's the safety and security of the flying public, including yourself, sir.

 

[Quickstatus]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

Just because the passenger was a Dr does not make his travel more urgent than the other passengers in that aircraft. However neither does the urgency of the 4 crew members without a seat trump the 4 passengers offloaded.

 

[Denali]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

It's a sad picture you paint; where we just have to go along with whatever a corporation tells us to do, regardless of what is just or fair or reasonable. ....

Meh. McDonalds have the right to ask me to vacate their premises with my paid Happy Meal if they want. I must be getting less combative with old age.

I repeat, life is too short to be left bloodied and dragged down an airline aisle over a bad Y domestic seat when home is a 5hr car drive away.

 

[Quickstatus]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

Thats true and one way of looking at it.

However McDonalds do not have the right to take the paid Happy Meal from me and give it to someone else especially when Ive taken it out of the wrapper and about to eat it and especially when they can make more.

 

[njba]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

Just because the passenger was a Dr does not make his travel more urgent than the other passengers in that aircraft. However neither does the urgency of the 4 crew members without a seat trump the 4 passengers offloaded.

It's a tough nut to crack, to be sure.

Given he explained to the crew he was a doctor who had patients to treat the following morning, well, I wouldn't want to be the one to stand in the way of that happening.

I just can't get over that a plane full of people all refused free money (okay, other than three people). And then for the crew to pick a part of a family? It's just absurd. Surely there's a lot more to this story.

Meh. McDonalds have the right to ask me to vacate their premises with my paid Happy Meal if they want. I must be getting less combative with old age.

I repeat, life is too short to be left bloodied and dragged down an airline aisle over a bad Y domestic seat when home is a 5hr car drive away.

Aside from the false analogy, this line from Hamilton comes to mind:If you stand for nothing, Burr, what’ll you fall for?

 

[Quickstatus]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

Maybe once seated and ready to takeoff the passengers' "price" would have gone up?.
Everyone has a price. I think UA did not reach that point.

(In OZ, a Dr speeding down the road to a emergency does not absolve Dr from a speeding fine)

 

[njba]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

Maybe once seated and ready to takeoff the passengers' "price" would have gone up?.
Everyone has a price. I think UA did not reach that point.

(In OZ, a Dr speeding down the road to a emergency does not absolve Dr from a speeding fine)

No, but it would allow us to criticise the police who knocked him about the head for doing so, right?

 

[Denali]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

....
Aside from the false analogy, this line from Hamilton comes to mind:If you stand for nothing, Burr, what’ll you fall for?

Whereas I prefer to "pick my battles". A flight to Louisville wouldnt be my stand.

 

[CMA222]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

Maybe once seated and ready to takeoff the passengers' "price" would have gone up?.
Everyone has a price. I think UA did not reach that point.

United probably did not want to set a precedent of just increasing the offer till someone accepted, but had they done so someone would eventually have taken the offer. The resulting negative publicity all round the globe would have been avoided for much less than the damage from the publicity. United's Motto - Fly the friendly skies - if it suits us !!

 

[RooFlyer]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

It's interesting reading some of your responses. We don't know the full story by any means.

But, needing to move a crew at short notice happens. I've even seen aircraft, that have already departed the gate, brought back to pick up some crew that were in a 'must fly' situation. Invariably that means that if they don't get to where they are going, there will be subsequent cancellations of one (or more) services. Same really applies to the comments about driving them to their next port. If they have to operate, that will be part of their duty time, and will almost certainly result in the duty being curtailed.

They were not necessarily a standby crew, nor was there necessarily plenty of notice. They may have just finished a flight, and been planning on going home, when grabbed for another duty elsewhere. That could be forced by any number of factors. <snip>

Sure, if the late-boarding crew were operating my flight, I would want them there and ready to operate the flight. I've been on an aircraft in Canada that returned to the gate to pick up uniformed crew.

But ultimately it comes down to the airline to have contingencies in place and/or sufficient staffing in place to cover this type of situation; just as when I fly I have a contingency plan in case my flight is cancelled - always. Picking passengers, already seated and buckled up, at random and ask them to get off because the airline had just discovered it needs 4 bodies elsewhere is just not on - its was the airline's commercial problem, not those passengers' (and NOT over-booking) until the airline made it the passengers' problem.

Making the issue about a non-obedient passenger (the CEO's response) is quite disingenuous. The issue to me was United's lack of contingency planning (other than the 'oh, just boot the passengers coughs off the plane', plan, that is) and lack of common sense in handling the situation.

<snip> I'm sure it could have been handled better. But, once he outright refused the crew instruction, he simply wasn't going to fly. Digging heals in never works well in any situation.

But it seems he DID fly (subject to confirmation). So how did that happen I wonder?

Edit: ABC reports that he wasn't on board when the plane eventually departed (after everyone de-planed and then re-boarded).

Mr Bridges' wife told him she saw the man taken away on a stretcher and after a three-hour delay the flight took off without the man aboard.

I wonder how that delay worked for the airline and the crew trying to reach the other end?

 

[njba]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

Whereas I prefer to "pick my battles". A flight to Louisville wouldnt be my stand.

Indeed. It is a subjective value judgement. You obviously think he was wrong and/or foolish, but the fact remains he took a principled stand, and was attacked for his trouble and an attempt to stick to his guns. If you cannot respect someone for that, then you can't expect people to respect you whenever you decide to stick up for yourself or what you believe in.

 

[Denali]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

....But it seems he DID fly (subject to confirmation). So how did that happen I wonder?

Con Air?

 

[serfty]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

Con Air?

Reports I have seen state he came back to his seat (beside his wife) on that aircraft.

It was when he came back on that the shots of him bloodied were taken.

 

[burmans]

Re: Pax forcibly removed from United overbooked flight

It's a sad picture you paint; where we just have to go along with whatever a corporation tells us to do, regardless of what is just or fair or reasonable.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just pointing out how very sad that is: where a doctor in attempting to follow their duty of care to their patients is abused and vilified by a corporation because he didn't jump on command.

I think that, ignoring the hysterical at either end of the spectrum, this is what is annoying most people. Airlines, quite rightly, have the ability for safety reasons to exercise a fair amount of control over passengers.

But many seem to be abusing that right and extending it well beyond what was originally intended and quite enjoying the power of being ordering people around. Some are quite happy to say "they can do what they want", other have the view that just because you have power doesn't give you any right to abuse that power.