Passengers kicked off flight over seat recline spat

[Ghostdunks]

Just my two cents. For all the people complaining about recliners, perhaps spare a thought for the person in front of you reclining that it may not necessarily be all on them?

I'm a person who can sleep bolt upright, and don't actually need to recline to sleep(in fact, I find it more comfortable to sleep upright than to sleep on a slight recline). I don't particularly feel the need to recline on most flights, even long haul. However, when the person in front of me reclines, I usually have to "pass it on" by reclining myself otherwise the screen on the seat in front of me is at a bad angle to watch whatever I'm watching, or the seat is a few inches in front of my face. So I'm pretty much forced to recline myself, through no need/fault of my own.


if a plane allows reclining, then everyone should be able to recline. If a plane doesn't allow reclining, I'm fine with that too, as in both cases, everyone's on equal footing. However, if a plane allows reclining and some people don't allow the person in front of them to recline(through use of these knee defenders), why should the person in front pay the price when the person in front of them can recline into them? If you really can't have anyone recline into you, then there are options such as bulkhead seats where no one reclines into you, or exit row seats which have more legroom. I'm not even recommending prohibitively expensive options like business/first class.

 

[Warks]

Just my two cents. For all the people complaining about recliners, perhaps spare a thought for the person in front of you reclining that it may not necessarily be all on them?

I'm a person who can sleep bolt upright, and don't actually need to recline to sleep(in fact, I find it more comfortable to sleep upright than to sleep on a slight recline). I don't particularly feel the need to recline on most flights, even long haul. However, when the person in front of me reclines, I usually have to "pass it on" by reclining myself otherwise the screen on the seat in front of me is at a bad angle to watch whatever I'm watching, or the seat is a few inches in front of my face. So I'm pretty much forced to recline myself, through no need/fault of my own.


if a plane allows reclining, then everyone should be able to recline. If a plane doesn't allow reclining, I'm fine with that too, as in both cases, everyone's on equal footing. However, if a plane allows reclining and some people don't allow the person in front of them to recline(through use of these knee defenders), why should the person in front pay the price when the person in front of them can recline into them? If you really can't have anyone recline into you, then there are options such as bulkhead seats where no one reclines into you, or exit row seats which have more legroom. I'm not even recommending prohibitively expensive options like business/first class.

The "cascade effect" in action.

 

[suze2000]

Those seats that scoot forward are hell on your lower back. I can't use them and will actively avoid flights if I know they are going to be there. I can't be the only one since they are not ubiquitous throughout the airline industry.

 

[dajop]

Those seats that scoot forward are hell on your lower back. I can't use them and will actively avoid flights if I know they are going to be there. I can't be the only one since they are not ubiquitous throughout the airline industry.

There are actually two kinds of such seats. The shell seats where the only action is for the base of the seat to go forward. They're probably the worst, and for many people seem to be uncomfortable. The other type is when reclining the seat - the base goes forward a little and the back reclines a little - they seem to be much better, and I'd go so far as to say the closest ever got to a balance between recliners and non-recliners.

The other thought on the whole debate I often sense, perhaps ironically that it's the short hauls (up to 4 or 5 hrs) were the most disputes seem to occur. Maybe it's more of a problem on the narrow bodies where everyone is packed in like sardines than on a (relatively) spacious A380, 330 or 777.

 

[hossein_au]

You are probably too young to remember the old days when we used to have a single movie screen at the front of each cabin and all passengers reclined their seats during movies so everyone could get a good look at the screen (Singapore Airlines used to specifically ask all passengers to recline for this purpose). Everyone reclined and no one lost any space.

We never had any disagreements in those days!

Oh, good old days... welcome to the age of entitlement, aka when self-centred, precious, brats roam the earth...

 

[Brisbane Flyer]

Not true. I've been so overtired on a long haul from not being able to sleep that I've ended up quite upset and panicked. If I could have got off half way to the US I would have.

You should seriously hit the booze if u are overtired and over the Pacific!
A couple of drinks that tired and you'll nod off, at least for a short amount of sleep.

Or, if its a known problem, then stop in Hawaii. Hawaiian, for example, has alot of options to the mainland from Hawaii and from Australia to Hawaii.

 

[blackcat20]

You should seriously hit the booze if u are overtired and over the Pacific!
A couple of drinks that tired and you'll nod off, at least for a short amount of sleep.

Or, if its a known problem, then stop in Hawaii. Hawaiian, for example, has alot of options to the mainland from Hawaii and from Australia to Hawaii.

The booze doesn't help (many on here can vouch for my ability to drink); if anything it makes me more chatty. I've just learnt to suck it up as much as possible.

 

[UP4014]

The booze doesn't help (many on here can vouch for my ability to drink); if anything it makes me more chatty. I've just learnt to suck it up as much as possible.

Perhaps recliners should be asking for the back row.

 

[seanpodge]

Perhaps recliners should be asking for the back row.

Those seats often have no recline at all.

 

[JohnK]

Perhaps recliners should be asking for the back row.

That's not how it works.

Recliners should always sit in bulkheads. Who cares about those behind?

 

[medhead]

Surely that's not true. Medhead can sit fully upright, so that means everyone else in the world must be able to as well.

Did I write fully upright? Did I write I was fully upright? No. How about not making up rubbish to further your personal attacks on me.

Do you think someone who has slept in the place I pictured has a pain free back? Certainly not an injury, hence my lack if further comment. Until your pathetic strawman argument. My initial comment had nothing to do with injuries.

 

[medhead]

It may have, however I had a kicking child behind me and it was safer to keep my seat up. I was also hemmed in by reclining AFL players in front. But I've learnt: if you don't like being reclined on, make sure you aren't in that position. Buy an exit row or bulkhead seat. I figure it works out just over $10 an hour, and that is worth my sanity. And again, I can't sit fully upright due to an injury, it's quite painful.

Well I wasn't going to comment further, but it seems others have different plans. Having worked with a number of people with serious back injuries i have complete respect for your situation. I note that this is the first time you've mentioned the injury to me.

I also note that my comment was about people who feel they need to recline to sleep. It was not about people who need to recline because of an injury. You responded about the question of being tired. With the greatest of respect reclining because of a back injury is a separate matter that I was not addressing in anyway.

 

[mannej]

Reclining provides negligible comfort to aid sleep. If someone can sleep while reclined then they can sleep with the seat upright. If I'm tired I can sleep.

Whilst you did not mention the word "fully", it is implied. Lets also bear in mind that the statement that reclining provides negligible comfort to aid sleep is opinion, not fact.

 

[medhead]

Whilst you did not mention the word "fully", it is implied. Lets also bear in mind that the statement that reclining provides negligible comfort to aid sleep is opinion, not fact.

Utter tosh. "Seat upright" implies nothing of the sort. That is merely your inference.

Opinion or fact is irrelevant. I can express my opinion without being subjected to personal attacks. But I'm sure I can dig out a few sleep studies if I really wish. It is also worth repeating that my comment was about those who feel the need to recline to sleep. Not those who need to recline because of an injury.

 

[opusman]

I can express my opinion without being subjected to personal attacks.

Someone simply disagreeing with your opinion is not making a personal attack. Get over yourself.

 

[mannej]

Utter tosh. "Seat upright" implies nothing of the sort. That is merely your inference.

I beg to differ. When you are asked to return your seat to the upright position, is the seat not returned to the most upright position that it can achieve. To me that would suggest in this context that fully upright and upright are interchangeable.

Opinion or fact is irrelevant. I can express my opinion without being subjected to personal attacks. But I'm sure I can dig out a fee sleep studies if I really wish. It is also worth repeating that my comment was about those who feel the need to recline to sleep. Not those who need to recline because of an injury.

Sorry Medhead, but where is my personal attack against you in my response to your quote? I am still trying to figure that one out.

 

[Brisbane Flyer]

I've done 3m+ miles in the last 20 yrs and yes, I prefer to sleep with the seat reclined.

Its quite comfortable to recline in a dark cabin and sleep or just chill out while the captain gets me to my destination.

I've done the LAX-BNE route too many times to count and just about everyone reclines right after takeoff because its a midnight departure.

Cheers
BF

 

[blackcat20]

Well I wasn't going to comment further, but it seems others have different plans. Having worked with a number of people with serious back injuries i have complete respect for your situation. I note that this is the first time you've mentioned the injury to me.

I also note that my comment was about people who feel they need to recline to sleep. It was not about people who need to recline because of an injury. You responded about the question of being tired. With the greatest of respect reclining because of a back injury is a separate matter that I was not addressing in anyway.

I mentioned it upthread in response to JohnK declaring that other peoples comfort is not more important than his.

I like to recline to sleep. It's more comfortable. The shoulder just makes it double necessary. So not completely a separate issue. You said that if you were tired, you could sleep upright but I'm trying to show that it's not always the case.

 

[JohnK]

I mentioned it upthread in response to JohnK declaring that other peoples comfort is not more important than his.

Ah yes I remember. People who sit in a bulkhead seat and recline at their leisure because the feature is there to be used because they paid for it. Is that the one?

Your injury aside I am not going to sit here arguing with you about your misperception of what 4 inches of recline does to your ability to sleep. Absolutely none. Zilch. Nada. It is all in the mind. Teach yourself to sleep anywhere. It is one of the simplest things to do and comes in handy. The quality of sleep is not compromised due to lack of recline.

Now here is a stupid thought. A person has the right to recline because the recline feature is there. That is OK. Granted. But if they can see the person behind is struggling and continue to recline this is where the separation between human being and drone comes in.

I have come across some creeps in my travel. These are the people who think their needs outweight the needs of those around them. They get no respect from me.

e.g
- The creep that reclines their seat and then sits upright for the duration of the recline.
- The creep who reclines their seat and then falls asleep and the FAs refuse to wake him up. Tray table won't come down so I eat holding the tray in one hand on my lap. This has happened to me more times than I care to remember. Next time an FA refuses my request I am going to unctrollably shake the seat in front. Sorry I didn't mean to do it. I don't know what came over me.
- The creep and his girlfriend in bulkhead who recline as soon as wheels are off the ground and on descent as well when the FAs are out of sight. Didn't even want to give up the recline when the meal service came around and made my flight hell. I just kept pushing my knee into the seat back as hard as I could as often as I could on that short 2 hour flight BKK-SIN in the middle of the day.
- The creep who reclined his business class on a CX A330 all the way on a HKG-BKK flight during the meal service so I can sit there staring at his bald head all through my meal.
- The mother who thought she would personally recline her 3 young kids' seats after they had fallen asleep. Yes a 5-6-7-8-9 year old really needs to be reclined after they have fallen asleep. Luckily I had 2 seats so leaned uncomfortably and use the IFE of the other seat.
- The couple who decided to recline in unison on the short 25 minute flight SYD-CBR. Seriously?

And then there have also been people who are very sympathetic to the needs of those around them.

e.g
- The 5'0' lass sitting in premium economy bulkhead window on a SYD-LAX flight who reclined as soon as the seatbelt sign went off. A few minutes later dad wanted to get out of his seat and couldn't even grabbing the seat in front. She returned her seat to upright position for the duration of the flight.
- The Singaporean couple in front of me on an SQ SYD-SIN flight in upper deck economy on A380. She reclined immediately after take-off but then noticed I could not get out of seat so returned the seat to upright position.

Does it sound like I am bitter. You bet. But I can live with it and if I am not in bulkhead I resign myself to the fact that I am going to get a serial recliner. And that is OK. I can handle it. I just like coughing about in on AFF because I get it off my chest.

But my best possible solution. Beat the crowd to the bulkhead seat that way there cannot be any confrontation what so ever. At least the person behind me is going to get a flight.

 

[medhead]

Someone simply disagreeing with your opinion is not making a personal attack. Get over yourself.

You made yourself a nice little strawman and attacked. You certainly didn't just disagree with my opinion. You made up some rubbish that I never wrote and then attacked me as being inconsiderate of the suffering of someone with a back injury.

I beg to differ. When you are asked to return your seat to the upright position, is the seat not returned to the most upright position that it can achieve. To me that would suggest in this context that fully upright and upright are interchangeable.

Sorry Medhead, but where is my personal attack against you in my response to your quote? I am still trying to figure that one out.

It is very, very, very, very easy. The position of the seat is not, and was never intended to be, a statement about my seating position relative to the seat. It is utterly false to conclude that the seat being upright means I am sitting "fully" upright. You have taken up this strawman argument to chip in your 2 cents to further the attack.

I did not write that I was sitting fully upright regardless of both of your false conclusions.