Passengers kicked off flight over seat recline spat

[medhead]

I mentioned it upthread in response to JohnK declaring that other peoples comfort is not more important than his.

I like to recline to sleep. It's more comfortable. The shoulder just makes it double necessary. So not completely a separate issue. You said that if you were tired, you could sleep upright but I'm trying to show that it's not always the case.

That's nice. I didn't read that. You clearly have a separate issue, you need to recline because of the injury. I said if someone was tired, I did not say if they were tired and injured.

 

[mannej]

That's nice. I didn't read that. You clearly have a separate issue, you need to recline because of the injury. I said if someone was tired, I did not say if they were tired and injured.

That is still your opinion that people can sleep sitting upright. Still not fact. There is a plethora of reasons out there why people may not be able to sleep upright.

As for attacks, can you please point out where I have attacked a member on this thread?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Ah yes I remember. People who sit in a bulkhead seat and recline at their leisure because the feature is there to be used because they paid for it. Is that the one?

Your injury aside I am not going to sit here arguing with you about your misperception of what 4 inches of recline does to your ability to sleep. Absolutely none. Zilch. Nada. It is all in the mind. Teach yourself to sleep anywhere. It is one of the simplest things to do and comes in handy. The quality of sleep is not compromised due to lack of recline.

Now here is a stupid thought. A person has the right to recline because the recline feature is there. That is OK. Granted. But if they can see the person behind is struggling and continue to recline this is where the separation between human being and drone comes in.

I have come across some creeps in my travel. These are the people who think their needs outweight the needs of those around them. They get no respect from me.

e.g
- The creep that reclines their seat and then sits upright for the duration of the recline.
- The creep who reclines their seat and then falls asleep and the FAs refuse to wake him up. Tray table won't come down so I eat holding the tray in one hand on my lap. This has happened to me more times than I care to remember. Next time an FA refuses my request I am going to unctrollably shake the seat in front. Sorry I didn't mean to do it. I don't know what came over me.
- The creep and his girlfriend in bulkhead who recline as soon as wheels are off the ground and on descent as well when the FAs are out of sight. Didn't even want to give up the recline when the meal service came around and made my flight hell. I just kept pushing my knee into the seat back as hard as I could as often as I could on that short 2 hour flight BKK-SIN in the middle of the day.
- The creep who reclined his business class on a CX A330 all the way on a HKG-BKK flight during the meal service so I can sit there staring at his bald head all through my meal.
- The mother who thought she would personally recline her 3 young kids' seats after they had fallen asleep. Yes a 5-6-7-8-9 year old really needs to be reclined after they have fallen asleep. Luckily I had 2 seats so leaned uncomfortably and use the IFE of the other seat.
- The couple who decided to recline in unison on the short 25 minute flight SYD-CBR. Seriously?

And then there have also been people who are very sympathetic to the needs of those around them.

e.g
- The 5'0' lass sitting in premium economy bulkhead window on a SYD-LAX flight who reclined as soon as the seatbelt sign went off. A few minutes later dad wanted to get out of his seat and couldn't even grabbing the seat in front. She returned her seat to upright position for the duration of the flight.
- The Singaporean couple in front of me on an SQ SYD-SIN flight in upper deck economy on A380. She reclined immediately after take-off but then noticed I could not get out of seat so returned the seat to upright position.

Does it sound like I am bitter. You bet. But I can live with it and if I am not in bulkhead I resign myself to the fact that I am going to get a serial recliner. And that is OK. I can handle it. I just like coughing about in on AFF because I get it off my chest.

But my best possible solution. Beat the crowd to the bulkhead seat that way there cannot be any confrontation what so ever. At least the person behind me is going to get a flight.

There is evidence to suggest the benefits to seat reclining, particularly for the discs in your back. In fact the article I posted says sitting upright is unhealthy.

On that basis alone, people should in no way be discouraged from reclining.

Not putting seats up during meals, that is inconsiderate.

If seats are reclined during critical stages of flight - do something about it!! I did on a flight from HKG-PEK when someone refused to do so, and I stood up for the safety of the people sitting behind to demand he put his seat back upright. He didn't appreciate the recline would impede an exit during the event of an emergency.

As for everything else... if you choose to fly economy, that's what you get. The recline function is there (outside meal times and critical stages of flight) and with the cascade effect - if the person in front puts their seat back, so can you. No one has lost any space. Everyone keeps the same.

Are martyrs as bad as seat recliners?

 

[Denali]

Ah yes I remember. People who sit in a bulkhead seat and recline at their leisure because the feature is there to be used because they paid for it. Is that the one?

Your injury aside I am not going to sit here arguing with you about your misperception of what 4 inches of recline does to your ability to sleep. Absolutely none. Zilch. Nada. It is all in the mind. Teach yourself to sleep anywhere. It is one of the simplest things to do and comes in handy. The quality of sleep is not compromised due to lack of recline.

Now here is a stupid thought. A person has the right to recline because the recline feature is there. That is OK. Granted. But if they can see the person behind is struggling and continue to recline this is where the separation between human being and drone comes in.

I have come across some creeps in my travel. These are the people who think their needs outweight the needs of those around them. They get no respect from me.

e.g
- The creep that reclines their seat and then sits upright for the duration of the recline.
- The creep who reclines their seat and then falls asleep and the FAs refuse to wake him up. Tray table won't come down so I eat holding the tray in one hand on my lap. This has happened to me more times than I care to remember. Next time an FA refuses my request I am going to unctrollably shake the seat in front. Sorry I didn't mean to do it. I don't know what came over me.
- The creep and his girlfriend in bulkhead who recline as soon as wheels are off the ground and on descent as well when the FAs are out of sight. Didn't even want to give up the recline when the meal service came around and made my flight hell. I just kept pushing my knee into the seat back as hard as I could as often as I could on that short 2 hour flight BKK-SIN in the middle of the day.
- The creep who reclined his business class on a CX A330 all the way on a HKG-BKK flight during the meal service so I can sit there staring at his bald head all through my meal.
- The mother who thought she would personally recline her 3 young kids' seats after they had fallen asleep. Yes a 5-6-7-8-9 year old really needs to be reclined after they have fallen asleep. Luckily I had 2 seats so leaned uncomfortably and use the IFE of the other seat.
- The couple who decided to recline in unison on the short 25 minute flight SYD-CBR. Seriously?

And then there have also been people who are very sympathetic to the needs of those around them.

e.g
- The 5'0' lass sitting in premium economy bulkhead window on a SYD-LAX flight who reclined as soon as the seatbelt sign went off. A few minutes later dad wanted to get out of his seat and couldn't even grabbing the seat in front. She returned her seat to upright position for the duration of the flight.
- The Singaporean couple in front of me on an SQ SYD-SIN flight in upper deck economy on A380. She reclined immediately after take-off but then noticed I could not get out of seat so returned the seat to upright position.

Does it sound like I am bitter. You bet. But I can live with it and if I am not in bulkhead I resign myself to the fact that I am going to get a serial recliner. And that is OK. I can handle it. I just like coughing about in on AFF because I get it off my chest.

But my best possible solution. Beat the crowd to the bulkhead seat that way there cannot be any confrontation what so ever. At least the person behind me is going to get a flight.

Im mid 40s now, up until about a 18mths ago we have always flown Y and mainly medium to long haul and I can only think of one time that a passenger in front of me pissed me off for reclining (reclined before we even took off and put their feet on the chair in front).

To have such a list of pissed off behaviours, maybe its you that needs to lower your expectations.

A plane is a confined space in a metal tube. Economy passengers are not guaranteed comfort, relaxing times and privacy. Im of the motto, sit down, shut up, don't bother the staff and hope to get there with bags and if this happens, it was a good flight.

I think the whiners need to tone down their entitlement and expectations. If you want comfort and space then you pay extra for it. The airlines make no secret that there is a cabin for just that purpose but otherwise the majority (Y) are to be shoved in like sardines and none of the airlines hide this.

 

[JohnK]

I think the whiners need to tone down their entitlement and expectations. If you want comfort and space then you pay extra for it. The airlines make no secret that there is a cabin for just that purpose but otherwise the majority (Y) are to be shoved in like sardines and none of the airlines hide this.

That statement goes both ways.

I want to travel as often as possible. I found my solution. And that is to ensure I have bulkhead. Never ever compromise bulkhead for anyone. But occasionally that theory comes unstuck. That doesn't mean people should have the opportunity to ruin my flying experience. Should they? I fly to enjoy the flying experience. Not to sleep. And I still enjoy flying all these years.

Unfortunately those that believe they are entitled are more vocal than anyone. And the vocal ones are not recliners. It is clear in this thread.

Are martyrs as bad as seat recliners?

Depends on how you look at it. My non reclining does not hurt anyone. Yet I have given you situations above where recliners have spoilt my flight and the FAs do nothing about it when clearly people should not recline during meal times. I learn to live it.

Occasionally though I lose the plot and these creeps need to be put in their place.

 

[opusman]

My non reclining does not hurt anyone .... Occasionally though I lose the plot and these creeps need to be put in their place.

Your expectation that everyone else should not recline does, particularly if you do "lose the plot" and abuse them for something they are perfectly entitled to do.

 

[Denali]

..... That doesn't mean people should have the opportunity to ruin my flying experience. Should they? ...

You are expecting others to forgo their comfort to optimise your flight experience.

Why should a stranger in front of you give two coughs about you? Ive never been on a plane and expected the person in front of me to give a damn about my existence let alone that stranger in front of me make an effort, at the cost of their own comfort, to make my flight comfortable.

Maybe its me, maybe my expectations are too low.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Interesting opinion piece from the New York Times
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/2...irline-seat-you-can-pay-me.html?_r=2&referrer

 

[coles525]

After skipping pages 8 till 11 (topic 105!), I need to say it annoys me when someone decides to "push on my sear" to help them get out their own seat.

Doesn't anyone else know the real way (less annoying for the seat infront of you...) of doing this?

Let me tell you how I get out of MY seat:

1) Put my hand on my armrest

2) As I do this, I turn towards my right

3) Whilst turning to the right, I put my other hand on TOP of MY OWN seat!

4) I then stand up and get out my seat!

Im sorry that I had to explain exactly how I do this, but EVERYONE ELSE needs to learn NOT to use the seat in front!

 

[badseed]

I'm over 6 feet tall, and unfortunately a good deal of that is torso, so if the person in front of me reclines I'll need to do the same to be able to watch the IFE.But these things can be done in 'humane' ways - usually I'll double check that the person behind isn't still eating, or doesn't have a laptop in a precarious position.Really though, this argument is simple: if you don't like to recline or being reclined into either travel on an airline that does not have reclining seats or be proactive and pay for a seat where you're less likely to be annoyed. Just like I don't fly long haul on carriers with bad seats (e.g. 777's with 10 across or A330s with 9), I'm happy to pay to ensure a base / tolerable level of comfort. That level is different for everyone.I've only ever had one problem and that was on QF94 a few years ago where the person in front had reclined and the woman behind me was trying to read a magazine. She objected to me reclining (this was well after the meal service had been cleared, ~ 3 hours out of LAX and cabin lights etc were off), but I invited her to stand up and see just how I was positioned and she quickly apologised for causing any fuss.

 

[eastwest101]

Interesting opinion piece from the New York Times
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/2...irline-seat-you-can-pay-me.html?_r=2&referrer

That's an interesting opinion piece about a transaction value way of dealing with reclining by giving say the property rights of a person in front to recline and then be able to sell that right to the person behind as a right not to recline into the person behind. Or alternately give the property right to the person behind and that person can charge the person in front for their loss of space when reclined into. May make ticketing and seating allocation too complex to be worthwhile though.

For short haul domestic Y cabins - I still think having a fleet with 'reclinability' allowed only on one side of the aircraft and recline totally disabled on the other side, and have this transparent and selectable in the purchase process, would be the most simple and elegant solution, it would just run exactly like the old smoking and non-smoking allocation did in the past. You would think that it would become very apparent which form of seating was preferable and the logical market response would be that the more "popular" option would sell out or command a higher fare than the unpopular option. Other people have proposed various options of recline allowed or not allowed at the front/back of the aircraft but that brings in its own problematic preferential treatment of whomever gets the front of the Y cabin if their recline preference is at the back of the aircraft. That's why I suggested the left and right side of the aircraft because they are essentially mirror images of eachother with most domestic Y cabins. All interesting questions to ponder - would you pay an extra $10-$15 to recline? Would you pay and extra $10-$15 not to be in the reclining section? Would airlines be able to market recline? Market lack of recline? Issue would seem to be general decreasing seat pitch and gradual increase in typical height of people, there are also just not enough exit row/bulkhead seats in supply compared to the demand for bulkhead and exit row seats. So if the economics of airline seating density is the problem, then the solution would generally be expected to be a market based or economic solution as well.

In J class I think the pitch is generally generous enough not to prohibit recline (except maybe in meal times but debatable).

For long haul >3-4hr flights in Y cabins (especially if night time or red eye flights) it may be necessary to allow greater than 50% of seats to have recline as you would imagine that the demand for recline would be higher in these situations.

Its a similar issue to checked luggage charges -> overhead baggage issues and the consequent delays and loss of efficiency that come with what we see with carry-on baggage in the USA. Eventually the costs of gate checking/delays/diversions/missing slots/staff time/confrontation between pax etc will overwhelm the sometimes illusionary profits of the checked baggage fees or the tighter Y seating densities.

Just my 2c anyway

 

[dajop]

There is evidence to suggest the benefits to seat reclining, particularly for the discs in your back. In fact the article I posted says sitting upright is unhealthy.

True, but most airline seats are angled somewhat anyway, they aren't exactly upright, even though sometimes they feel that way. Upright seats are those found in "dog box" style train carriages, still common across Europe, but not so much in Australia. I experienced the joy of those seats in my youth a couple of times travelling between Melbourne and Sydney before they put the XPT on the route.

 

[JohnK]

Your expectation that everyone else should not recline does, particularly if you do "lose the plot" and abuse them for something they are perfectly entitled to do.

You are expecting others to forgo their comfort to optimise your flight experience.

Neither of you are reading my posts are you?

It is not acceptable to recline during meal times. Is it? It is not my responsibility to ensure I am able to have a meal like everyone. It is not my responsibility to ensure the creep in front complies and does not ruin my flight. Is it?

Now stop having a go at me and my expectations will not be like yours. I am entitled to the space around me. I am entitled to use all the features that I paid for. I can barely tolerate reclining outside of meal times. I generally suffer in silence. I do not tolerate reclining during meal times. And meal time is not you scoffing doen your meal and reclining. It is the time it takes to get cleared away.

You can think of me what you will. Just know that I have little respect for those that recline. Especially in bulkhead seat and more so when they know the person behind is inconvenienced.

That is my opinion. I am not trying to change yours. Don't try to change mine. Don't try to tell me I am wrong because I am clearly not wrong. I have given you real life examples where the creep in front should not recline. You continue to side with the recliner when they are clearly in the wrong.

 

[opusman]

I am entitled to use all the features that I paid for.

One of the features you have paid for is the ability to recline your seat. Bully for you if you choose not to use it. You have no right to expect that other passengers who have also paid for that feature will not.

 

[JohnK]

One of the features you have paid for is the ability to recline your seat. Bully for you if you choose not to use it. You have no right to expect that other passengers who have also paid for that feature will not.

You are not reading my posts are you?

You have no right to recline during meal times. Do you?

 

[TomVexille]

It is not acceptable to recline during meal times. Is it? It is not my responsibility to ensure I am able to have a meal like everyone. It is not my responsibility to ensure the creep in front complies and does not ruin my flight. Is it?

Then fly an airline that ensure that all Y passengers put their seat upright at meal times.

Now stop having a go at me and my expectations will not be like yours. I am entitled to the space around me. I am entitled to use all the features that I paid for. I can barely tolerate reclining outside of meal times. I generally suffer in silence. I do not tolerate reclining during meal times. I am not here to babysit.

(bolding mine)

Like reclining?

That is my opinion. I am not trying to change yours. Don't try to change mine. Don't try to tell me I am wrong because I am clearly not wrong. I have given you real life examples where the creep in front should not recline. You continue to side with the recliner when they are clearly in the wrong.

I still don't get why they are in the wrong? Is it because you don't fit in the seat?

According to you people who don't respect your wishes are creeps. That makes you a creep as well?

 

[opusman]

You have no right to recline during meal times. Do you?

If the airline has a rule specifically prohibiting it, or the flight attendants tell you not to, then no. Otherwise yes.

 

[Denali]

..... .. I am entitled to use all the features that I paid for......

Bingo! The person in front of you is also entitled to use all the features that they paid for and that includes reclining a seat that was made to recline.

 

[TomVexille]

You have no right to recline during meal times. Do you?

I don't know about rights, but it is polite.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Or alternately give the property right to the person behind and that person can charge the person in front for their loss of space when reclined into.

this is a red herring. there is absolutely NO loss of space when the person in front reclines. The person behind can recline as well and total available space is maintained.