PED's on/off during various flight stages - Why?

[markis10]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

And yes, markis10, I was aware of those general provisions - I just want to know if there is something specific in any reg which says that it is illegal to use a PED regardless of whether or not you get a direction to do so.

Until recently its been left to the airline to dictate the PED policy, as the said policy is part of their operation manual and AOC, its legally binding as a crew instruction.

 

[milehighclub]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

If it's the airline rule - different story. For me, at least, it would influence how I might approach the situation if my neighbour was flagrantly disobeying, as I'm not one to act as policeman unless I see a really good reason why I should.

But airline rules are all based on CASA requirements.

CASA also allows an airline to enforce their own rules provided they are stricter than what CASA requires. Qantas has many policies that are stricter than those required by CASA. An example is that CASA allows passengers to have book matches. Qantas has approval that on Qantas flights you are NOT allowed book matches.

 

[epsc]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

It's not that simple, in my view - the legislature cannot simply rely on an airline to determine what is and is not a breach of the criminal law of our country. I'll report as to what CASA says, anyway.

 

[milehighclub]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Basically every policy that a flight attendant follows, enforces etc to quote the manual says "are issued in accordance with the requirements of the Regulations to the Civil Aviation Act (Australia)"

 

[markis10]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

It's not that simple, in my view - the legislature cannot simply rely on an airline to determine what is and is not a breach of the criminal law of our country. I'll report as to what CASA says, anyway.

It is that simple, your forgetting the airline is licenced and their policies are part of the licenced framework which is reviewed on an ongoing basis, to use the ATSB words in relation to a recent repcon report in such issues: Current regulations give aircraft crew the power to prohibit the use of any device which can threaten the safety of an aircraft. It is very important that passengers listen to and comply with announcements from the cabin crew when these restrictions apply.

If an airline deems something a threat to the safety of ITS aircraft, it has the power to act.

 

[epsc]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Milehighclub, this is why I'm trying to find out - I would like to know what the exact law is, if there is one. I am not content simply to assume that what the airline tells us is based on some provision in our criminal law. Its a fairly basic point, and I for one am quite happy to be guided by what CASA is going to tell me, as they are the regulatory authority in this regard.

 

[epsc]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

I won't labour the point any further - markis10, I want to know if there is a SPECIFIC law or regulation making it illegal to use a PED. I do not disagree with you in the slightest about the entitlement of an airline to give directions, and take action, to preserve the safety of the aircraft, crew and passengers.

 

[JessicaTam]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

I won't labour the point any further - markis10, I want to know if there is a SPECIFIC law or regulation making it illegal to use a PED. I do not disagree with you in the slightest about the entitlement of an airline to give directions, and take action, to preserve the safety of the aircraft, crew and passengers.

There does not need to be a specific law or regulation in this case. It is enough that we must follow a direction of the PIC where he/she believes the safety of the aircraft is at risk. That belief is guided by CASA regulations and the airlines' policies on such matters. If there were specific laws on everything our statutes would fill, well, more statute books.

Just my 2c

 

[777]

I won't labour the point any further - markis10, I want to know if there is a SPECIFIC law or regulation making it illegal to use a PED. I do not disagree with you in the slightest about the entitlement of an airline to give directions, and take action, to preserve the safety of the aircraft, crew and passengers.

Perfectly valid legal/process question. I'm curious too. Please report back!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

The aircraft commander may, when he has reasonable grounds to believe that a person has committed, or is about to commit, on board the aircraft, an offence or act contemplated in Article 1, paragraph 1, impose upon such person reasonable measures including restraint which are necessary:
(a) to protect the safety of the aircraft, or of persons or
property therein; or

(a) is the key. As long as the PIC resonably believes PEDs could be a threat to the safety of the aircraft, then they have the full force of the law behind them if you fail to stop using that device when requested to do so.

Could a mobile be a threat when parked at the gate? Unlikely, therefore it might be an unreasonable request if asked to turn it off at that stage. Could it interfere with flight operations once door closed? Possibly given the anecdotal evidence from nasa and everyone else. But 'possible' = enough to fall under (a).

Just out of interest, if it was simply an airline requirement, would that actually change anything? I was under the impression that as far as us pax are concerned, when on an aircraft, what the cabin crew says = word of god... (Just for you MEL_Traveller - Of course your able to ignore any illegal request)

If it was simply an airline requirement, then again it comes down to what is reasonable. There is anecdotal evidence that PEDs have interfered with aircraft systems while the aircraft is in motion. Therefore, it is a reasonable request to require those to be turned off (and therefore carries the weight of the law behind it). If the aircraft is parked, boarding or disembarking (not via stairs onto the tarmac) then probably unreasonable given what we know today about the use of PEDs. Probably = no force of law behind it.

and ignoring instructions from cabin crew can carry consequences with it as if you had broken the law.

Failure to comply with lawful instruction = an actual breach of criminal law.

If it's law - must be obeyed. If it's the airline rule - different story. For me, at least, it would influence how I might approach the situation if my neighbour was flagrantly disobeying, as I'm not one to act as policeman unless I see a really good reason why I should.

But the law is only for the PIC and her their crew. By all means alert the crew to the situation. But the same law does not apply in respect of passengers.

In any event, as outlined above, an airline rule can still be enforceable under criminal law if you fail to comply with an instruction that the PIC reasonably believes may endanger the safety of the aircraft. Anecdotal evidence is probably enough to satisfy this requirement.

It's not that simple, in my view - the legislature cannot simply rely on an airline to determine what is and is not a breach of the criminal law of our country. I'll report as to what CASA says, anyway.

This is correct. A court would always have the final determination of whether a PIC acted on reasonable grounds. An airline and PIC gain their authority and ability to act through legislation, but ultimately they are subject to challenge like anyone else.

 

[medhead]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

It's not that simple, in my view - the legislature cannot simply rely on an airline to determine what is and is not a breach of the criminal law of our country. I'll report as to what CASA says, anyway.

Has anyone said this is part of criminal law? There are many laws and not all of them are criminal law. CASA regulations require passengers to follow all instructions (reasonable and lawful may come into play, of course) from crew. I'm not sure CASA regulations are part of criminal law.

 

[epsc]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Yes, some have said that it is their understanding that it is a crime (one can only be 'hauled off by the boys in blue' if one is committing a criminal offence), and the regulations do say that failure to obey a direction of the captain can constitute an offence ('offence' means a criminal act).

 

[epsc]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Only if it was a felony or serious criminal offence.

 

[markis10]

Yes, some have said that it is their understanding that it is a crime (one can only be 'hauled off by the boys in blue' if one is committing a criminal offence), and the regulations do say that failure to obey a direction of the captain can constitute an offence ('offence' means a criminal act).

Considering its covered by a specific crimes act with a 10 year jail sentence, there is no doubt it's a crime, and note even disruptive behaviour is covered under the penal code, you only need to look at the recent cases such as the NZ bound granny. It's the same set of regs that apply, where safety of the aircraft is affected.

 

[epsc]

With respect, let's return to reality - does anyone out there actually believe that there is a prospect of anyone being charged as an accessory because s/he sees his neighbour using their PED during takeoff? I have made it clear that in raising the issue of the legal status of this issue I am not condoning or attempting to encourage disobedience of crew directions, but it cannot be suggested with any basis in fact that we are at any risk whatsoever of getting into trouble if we fail to act.

 

[harvyk]

does anyone out there actually believe that there is a prospect of anyone being charged as an accessory because s/he sees his neighbour using their PED during takeoff?

Nope...

Ultimately we need to remember, whilst we're talking about what is legal vs what is simply a contract with the airline etc... An airline is a business who needs you flying with them as much as you need to fly. So I highly doubt an airline is going to get a pax a 10 year jail sentence for leaving their mobile on, even the airline had the right and ability to do so, because that would not make good business sense.

The long and short of it is airlines want to do two things,

1. Empty out your wallet
2. Ensure that you will fly them again

 

[epsc]

Just in from CASA - there is NO specific provision making it an offence to use a PED on board a commercial (or any other) flight. The only applicable provision is regulation 309A of the Civil Aviation Regulations, being the general rule that it is an offence to disobey an order from the PIC (for which the penalty is 25 penalty units, or $2,750). That is why they have to give the directive for every flight.

 

[SeatBackForward]

Just in from CASA - there is NO specific provision making it an offence to use a PED on board a commercial (or any other) flight. The only applicable provision is regulation 309A of the Civil Aviation Regulations, being the general rule that it is an offence to disobey an order from the PIC (for which the penalty is 25 penalty units, or $2,750). That is why they have to give the directive for every flight.

So it boils down to whether you're a follow instructions person, or a rebel without a cause person?

 

[epsc]

Pretty much, but we all know what we'd think of someone who considered themselves above the rules - whether a guest in your living room or a paying passenger in a plane. I may have my view of such a person, but will I be Constable Plod? Don't think so. Unless in they're in MY living room.

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Something turned off is unlikely to be un-stowed for long, and if PEDs start flying from pockets be it people or plane, then they are the least of our worries in the circumstance.

In my experience anything bigger than a mobile (iPads, laptops, Kindles, etc) end up on in people's hands, on their laps or (for most laptops, due to size and weight) loosely stowed in the seat/bulkhead pockets. I've had multiple laptops bounced out of the seat or bulkhead pocket just by rough landings, so I have no doubt they'll be flying everywhere in a real incident.