PED's on/off during various flight stages - Why?

[drsmithy]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Not at all. jb is quite correct. The law is the law and the law states these devices must be turned off. It's the same as speed limits. They are set where they are set and that's the law. Whether you think you can drive faster is irrelevant.

I haven't disagreed with what "the rules" say.

My point is that people who argue "do it because that's the rules" are the kinds of people that authoritarianism relies on.

The debate around electronics being on/off is not whether the law should be obeyed (it must be), but around who feels they want to enforce that, and why.

Which was the context in which I was replying.

I know a phone should be switched off in flight, but am I personally going to ask a passenger to turn it off if she isn't impeding my exit? Probably not, I'd leave that to the cabin crew. Would I ask a passenger to turn off a phone if they were sitting by an exit? Absolutely.

Would you ask them to stop reading a book ? Snoozing ? Talking to the person beside them ?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Someone who boasts about having people thrown off planes because they had a mobile phone on ? ...

No - you are missing the point. If the matter has to be escalated to the pilot it means the passenger has refused crew requests. You don't want a passenger like that on the plane. There comes a point where throwing someone off a plane is no longer about the original issue, it's now the passenger's behaviour. And at that point there is not going to be any argument entered into regarding the legitimacy of the law regarding mobiles to be turned off.

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

At the end of the day, someone who knows more about this stuff than you or I, has done a risk assessment on all of this. They have decided that electronic devices should not be used in critical phases of the flight, where the margin for error is low. Now, each airline gets to do its own risk assessment, so you will find variations on when they will allow devices to be used.

Tells you all you need to know with regards to the risk of these devices.

How much "variation" is there between airlines on, say, taking firearms or explosives onto a plane ?

How about your full-size tube of toothpaste ?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Would you ask them to stop reading a book ? Snoozing ? Talking to the person beside them ?

Snoozing yes. I was on a flight where a pax fell asleep at an overwing exit during taxi (snoring quite heavily). After I alerted the crew the plane stopped taxi-ing while the crew moved him to another seat. Why was it important? because we were on an ERJ, I was sitting behind the overwing exit, and there was no exit behind me. Having a passenger alert and able to open that overwing exit was potentially vital to my evacuation.

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

No - you are missing the point. If the matter has to be escalated to the pilot it means the passenger has refused crew requests. You don't want a passenger like that on the plane.

This is what's called a slippery slope fallacy.

There comes a point where throwing someone off a plane is no longer about the original issue, it's not the passenger's behaviour. And at that point there is not going to be any argument entered into regarding the legitimacy of the law regarding mobiles to be turned off.

At no point have I questioned the legitimacy of "the rules" about PEDs and their enforcement by crew.

My point has been about people who feel the need to go vigilante about a risk which is, being generous, insignificant.

 

[straitman]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

This is what's called a slippery slope fallacy.

Only if it is in fact a fallacy.

At no point have I questioned the legitimacy of "the rules" about PEDs and their enforcement by crew.

My point has been about people who feel the need to go vigilante about a risk which is, being generous, insignificant.

You questioned the legitimacy and enforcement of the rules when you called jb747 names for stating he enforces the rules.

As a sideline there is a huge amount of documentation on the subject that you have obviously not read.

 

[samh004]

I always love reading this thread.

Please, continue.




 

[medhead]

Especially on a 767 with iPads, where you have 200+ iPads around you happily chatting away to the mobile network.

Except that is after take off once the seat belt sign is switched off.


Sent from the Throne

 

[medhead]

You really think a pilot is going to get into a plane with few hundred devices that could kill him in the hands of people he has no control over (a sizeable chunk of which he _knows_ will not be turned off) ? The idea is laughable.

Let's put this in context here. I can get pulled up trying to take a tube of toothpaste onto a plane these days, but no-one would even blink if I carried on multiple laptops, phones, ipads, or numerous other types of PEDs.


Someone who boasts about having people thrown off planes because they had a mobile phone on ? <redacted>

I find it laughable that you don't seem to know or care about the reasons for the LAGS rules and the PED rules. LAGS are banned not because of your toothpaste but because someone else might like to put an explosive substance in the toothpaste tube.

As for someone boasting perhaps you have completely misinterpreted those comments. That guy is the captain on international flights. Everything he has written is a simple statement of fact. Full stop.

Then there are your comments about authoritism and associated dreams. They seem to be overly simplistic. Lets ignore the ludicrous implication of your position if we apply it to speed limits. Blindly following all rules without challenging them is the dream of an authoritative state. The key point of my statement is the challenging bit, disobeying a rule is not a proper challenge. If you want to challenge a rule go and do the scientific testing, gather the evidence and then go to court and get the rule overturned. Until you do that obey the rules. Simple!


Sent from the Throne

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Only if it is in fact a fallacy.

Which it is.

You questioned the legitimacy and enforcement of the rules when you called jb747 names for stating he enforces the rules.

I did not.

The original comment I responded to was made in the context of passengers going vigilante. That is the context in which I was replying.

As a sideline there is a huge amount of documentation on the subject that you have obviously not read.

I've certainly read everything that's been linked in this discussion, and probably more.

The risk of PEDs is insignificant. Hence the reason I don't get concerned about the person next to me playing fruit ninja on his iPad while we're taking off, or the other fifty 3G iPads on board people have just hit the 'sleep' button on rather than turned off.

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Except that is after take off once the seat belt sign is switched off.

The vast majority of people neither turn off their iPads, nor put them into flight mode. They just hit the sleep switch and stuff them into the seatback pocket.

Hence all those iPads are still merrily chatting away on the cellular network during takeoff, flight, taxi, and landing.

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

I find it laughable that you don't seem to know or care about the reasons for the LAGS rules and the PED rules. LAGS are banned not because of your toothpaste but because someone else might like to put an explosive substance in the toothpaste tube.

No, they're banned because people like to engage in security theatre.

As for someone boasting perhaps you have completely misinterpreted those comments. That guy is the captain on international flights. Everything he has written is a simple statement of fact. Full stop.

My comments were in the context of passengers acting on other passengers.

Then there are your comments about authoritism and associated dreams. They seem to be overly simplistic. Lets ignore the ludicrous implication of your position if we apply it to speed limits. Blindly following all rules without challenging them is the dream of an authoritative state. The key point of my statement is the challenging bit, disobeying a rule is not a proper challenge. If you want to challenge a rule go and do the scientific testing, gather the evidence and then go to court and get the rule overturned. Until you do that obey the rules. Simple!

And you accuse me of being simplistic. The irony.

 

[Fruitcake]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Except that is after take off once the seat belt sign is switched off.

From which point all devices have to be in 'flight mode' for safety reasons - except for QF's iPads.

But what power mode are the QF iPads left in at the end of each flight? The 3G radio will still be active in 'standby' mode.



I'm not trying to justify people disobeying crew instructions here - just pointing out some mild hypocrisy in the approach. "Your off the shelf consumer device interferes with aircraft electronics. Our off the shelf device in a case that stops you pressing the home button is completely fine."

My suggestion is that the safety warning around devices should be expanded to clearly and explicitly state something along the lines of, "At various critical stages during the journey, for the safety of yourself, those around you, and the crew, your undivided attention must be available to help you respond immediately in the unlikely event of an emergency. To help promote awareness of the environment both inside and outside the aircraft, window blinds must be raised for takeoff, and when taxiing for departure and whilst climbing personal electronic devices must have flight mode enabled where possible and be completely shut down. Personal audio devices do not allow you to hear crew instructions and their use is also prohibited at this time. Devices may be used in flight mode [once the seatbelt sign is off / the electronic devices light is off] until we begin our descent."

 

[markis10]

I've certainly read everything that's been linked in this discussion, and probably more.

The risk of PEDs is insignificant. Hence the reason I don't get concerned about the person next to me playing fruit ninja on his iPad while we're taking off, or the other fifty 3G iPads on board people have just hit the 'sleep' button on rather than turned off.

To say the risk of PEDs is insignificant is both naive and ignorant of the established research, not to mention the reports by pilots on this forum of personal experiences. This research ( by the UK CAA in 2003) has already been linked a couple of times, but it is rather extensive and verbose, so let me provide an executive summary in pictorial form for your perusal:

View attachment 99119911


Would you say the risk is insignificant when they have proved interference can result in the ILS being wrong, the one and only instrument that your aircraft depends on in the final stages of landing in bad weather, as a pilot and former aviation professional I can conclusively say the risk is real.

 

[bodog]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Hence all those iPads are still merrily chatting away on the cellular network during takeoff, flight, taxi, and landing.

Well not all of them - mine doesn't have 3G so it would be a miracle if it was chatting on the cellular network...

 

[Fruitcake]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Well not all of them - mine doesn't have 3G so it would be a miracle if it was chatting on the cellular network...

True, but you may well find it that it periodically fires up its wifi radio to see if it can find anyone to talk to - assuming you haven't put it in flight mode.

This was more aimed at the QF supplied iPads, which never have flight mode enabled.

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

Well not all of them - mine doesn't have 3G so it would be a miracle if it was chatting on the cellular network...

On what basis are you claiming to know what every other iPad on the plane is doing ?

 

[markis10]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

On what basis are you claiming to know what every other iPad on the plane is doing ?

On the same basis you make the claim that most are talking happily to an outside network (never mind the science behind faraday cages etc etc).

The vast majority of people neither turn off their iPads, nor put them into flight mode. They just hit the sleep switch and stuff them into the seatback pocket.


Hence all those iPads are still merrily chatting away on the cellular network during takeoff, flight, taxi, and landing.

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

On the same basis you make the claim that most are talking happily to an outside network (never mind the science behind faraday cages etc etc).

I've yet to see anyone, anywhere, on a flight actually turn their iPad completely off.

Faraday cages ? Are you really trying to argue that mobile phones don't work inside aircraft ?

 

[markis10]

Re: Approaches for dealing with 'electronic devices off'

I've yet to see anyone, anywhere, on a flight actually turn their iPad completely off.

Faraday cages ? Are you really trying to argue that mobile phones don't work inside aircraft ?

Then you have not sat next to me! Given the limited view any one passenger has of the cabin, such analysis is statistically irrelevant regardless and would not be accepted by any educated person as being representative of reality as far as the entire cabin goes.

My comment re Faraday cages is in the context of links which you claim to have read, yes, some phones will not get a signal because of this, for the same reason my signal is about to drop out in a train on the ground in the next km of travel.