Project Sunrise: A350 or 777X?

[flyer89]

Well, Qantas themselves seem to have forgotten. A 747-400 flew that route way back in 1989. That flight proved nothing too.

Someone has put together the clips of the news segments from the ‘89 flight on YouTube. It was funny to hear “direct passenger flights may still be up to a decade away”.

 

[Captain Halliday]

UK Independent yesterday:

Final preparations are under way for Qantas’ London-Sydney nonstop test flight, which is happening the same week as the airline announces its commitment to becoming more sustainable and cutting carbon emissions.

Qantas to launch direct London-Sydney flight on same week as sustainability pledge

Australian airline says it ‘recognises that airlines have a responsibility to cut emissions and combat climate change’

www.independent.co.uk

And they’re off... with surprisingly little fan fare... perhaps they didn’t think they’d get much traction with all the bushfire coverage.

 

[drron]

They will likely get a bit of world wide publicity with Richard Quest as a passenger.

 

[moa999]

Good Bloomberg article on the choices..

This quote by Joyce sums it up I guess:

The 777-8 offers a more compelling payload proposition on London and Sydney flights, whereas the lighter A350 would be more economical to destinations such as Hong Kong and Los Angeles, providing greater flexibility, Joyce said.

Boeing Pitches Stopgap Deal to Win Qantas Order for Delayed 777X

 

[sxc]

The promotion of the Boeing offer is an attempt to signal to Airbus to improve their offer and not to think they are the only ones in the game. Whether the Boeing offer is credible remains to be seen.

 

[Quickstatus]

This project's business case must be pretty marginal if its go-ahead depends on getting concessions out of the staff and achieving certain delivery dates. Imagine what would happen if oil prices went back to $80!

AJ is just using Sunrise as a bargaining tool to extract as much concessions as he can get.

 

[Quickstatus]

Unless QF buy/trade for new LHR slots, any non stop Sunshine flight would need to fit with their existing slot times. 2 x morning arrival, 2 x lunch departure, 2 x lunch arrival, 2 x evening departure (2 pairs currently leased to BA).

SYD has a curfew which means a 19.5 hr flight needs to depart LHR around 1430hrs to arrive at 2100 hrs (summer time SYD)

So lunchtime departure would suit
An evening departure would not suit for the same reasons

A 0600 SYD arrival means a departure from LHR around midnight.

SYD-LHR (21hr westwards) would need to be a morning arrival.
A 0600 LHR arrival = 2100hr SYD departure

Lunchtime LHR arrival require SYD departures within the curfew period.

So a SYD-LHR // LHR-SYD would need to be a morning LHR arrival and lunchtime LHR departure.

2 morning arrival slots are currently occupied by QF1,9. Maybe QF1 would go from an A380 to Sunrise which fits in with the story that A380 would eventually leave the QF fleet

it’s just too far. You want your pilots to be awake for 24 hours?

 

[drron]

Though QF2 and BA15 regularly arrive in SYD just after 0500.

 

[Quickstatus]

Though QF2 and BA15 regularly arrive in SYD just after 0500.

Yes I’m not sure that QF has a late evening slot. Bear in mind that LHR has restricted takeoffs after 2330. Currently QF2 departs 2045. Sunrise would need to depart approx 2300hrs. Earlier would see it run into SYD curfew.

From sleep pattern management point of view (as Sunrise purports to be) a 0500 landing usually means cabin activity and lights come on around 0300. Hardly conducive to re-timing sleep patterns (or is this just a marketing exercise)

 

[justinbrett]

it’s just too far. You want your pilots to be awake for 24 hours?

Even now, long haul have spare crew and they all get to sleep in beds during the flight. Even the cabin crew get to sleep in a bed.

 

[Quickstatus]

Even now, long haul have spare crew and they all get to sleep in beds during the flight. Even the cabin crew get to sleep in a bed.

Maybe but most pilots will tell you it’s not effective. Going to bed when your body says no plus aircraft noise. Inflight sleep does not reduce duty hours

 

[justinbrett]

Maybe but most pilots will tell you it’s not effective. Going to bed when your body says no plus aircraft noise.

Have you spoken to most pilots?

I’m sure some of them have difficulties but generally people who are constantly varying their sleep cycles don’t have a strong body clock and won’t find it too difficult to snooze when given the chance. As for aircraft noise - earplugs. I’ve managed to have some pretty good sleeps in J.

 

[dajop]

Yes I’m not sure that QF has a late evening slot. Bear in mind that LHR has restricted takeoffs after 2330. Currently QF2 departs 2045. Sunrise would need to depart approx 2300hrs. Earlier would see it run into SYD curfew.

2300 only for 6 months of the year. For April through to September 2300 departure would mean 0300ish arrival into SYD. No can do.

 

[dajop]

Maybe but most pilots will tell you it’s not effective. Going to bed when your body says no plus aircraft noise. Inflight sleep does not reduce duty hours

The main upside (from a passenger point of view) of longer flight is a longer window in which to try to sleep. I’ve found I have sounder sleeps on the ULHs than even flights only 2 hrs shorter (say SIN-EWR vs HKG-JFK). However that doesn’t necessarily translate to better crew rest as they of course have rostering constraints.

 

[Melburnian1]

Have you spoken to most pilots?

I’m sure some of them have difficulties but generally people who are constantly varying their sleep cycles don’t have a strong body clock and won’t find it too difficult to snooze when given the chance. As for aircraft noise - earplugs. I’ve managed to have some pretty good sleeps in J.

Perhaps they can "snooze" but is that "quality sleep?"

Irrespective of class, I find it so much easier to properly sleep on trains than on planes. Irritation factors on the latter include staff or other passengers moving about the cabin, a level of lighting above one's seat and forward or back of it such as stray light from a galley, the possibility of seatbelt signs coming on with a 'dong' and other noise. And while not always the case, one might be unlucky enough to have to listen to cabin crew talking - occasionally quite loudly - through the supposed hours of rest.

Contrast this with a well designed overnight train, which in a sleeping berth means one has a full height door between one and other travellers, or even sitting up when typically there's little light in the car (making it restful) and on better trains seats that recline and have a generous pitch with the window seat offering a ledge that helps in positioning one for sleeping. Nor is there any annoying armrest to get in the way, so if there's a spare seat next to the traveller, comfort increases further.

And rail sleeping berths never have those annoying seat indentations found on airline seats, with not all airlines offering a mattress topper. Nor does one have the problem on a train of a stupidly designed business class seat (SQ) where placing one's feet comfortably may be challenging.

The temperature on board aircraft can be another problem not usually found on trains.

I'd like to hear from many pilots on AFF about how well they perceive they sleep even in an F seat (where it exists) or J. Surely the constant time and duty hour changes must take some sort of a toll (eventually) on even the most robust individuals.

Some pilots I know inform me that after nine hour flights that are overnight, they walk around the next day like 'zombies' for at least part of the day. That doesn't give me confidence that they're getting sufficient proper rest, so what would it be like for these people after 24 hours?

 

[jb747]

Even now, long haul have spare crew and they all get to sleep in beds during the flight. Even the cabin crew get to sleep in a bed.

Spoken like someone who has no idea!

You may sleep on an aircraft, and yes, you may dream of just how much sleep you think you’d get in the crew rest. From which people may constantly be coming and going, and where, as Captain, you feel and hear every change that the aircraft makes. If I got an hour of actual sleep on most flights, I was lucky. And the planned crew rests will not be as good as the one in the 380!

 

[Melburnian1]

Though QF2 and BA15 regularly arrive in SYD just after 0500.

Only for six months of the year.

 

[jb747]

I'd like to hear from many pilots on AFF about how well they perceive they sleep even in an F seat (where it exists) or J. Surely the constant time and duty hour changes must take some sort of a toll (eventually) on even the most robust individuals.

J and F seats are both much worse than a proper crew rest area. Not only will the passengers continually disturb the pilots, but it will also work the other way.

The best type of crew rest is the sort in the 380, and to a lesser extent, the 747. In both, the area is away from the cabin, it has its own toilet, passengers cannot access the entry door, it is not in the roof over a galley, and something forgotten by most....the Captain is not far from the coughpit, and ideally is actually within the security door.

As for taking a toll...that was one reason I decided to retire before my time was actually up.

 

[drron]

Only for six months of the year.

No they are both ex SIN and the departure time for BA15 varies not the arrival time.Have been on BA15 many times now both when AEDST is operating and when not.The only problem is that to land between 0500 and 0600 the landing needs to be from the sea.If wind is in wrong direction which occurred once it is an extra hours wait in SIN.

 

[Quickstatus]

Have you spoken to most pilots?

I’m sure some of them have difficulties but generally people who are constantly varying their sleep cycles don’t have a strong body clock and won’t find it too difficult to snooze when given the chance. As for aircraft noise - earplugs. I’ve managed to have some pretty good sleeps in J.

I’m not sure what “strong body clock” actually means but the persistent jet lag related fatigue may take a week or so to dissipate before a LH/ULH pilot actually feels “normal” again