Project Sunrise: A350 or 777X?

[jb747]

The SQ 21 flight NYC-SIN is timed at 18:30.

I don't see much carry-on about safety with that flight.

I don't see much difference with the project-sunrise proposal except SQ ditched Y and F from the config.

Perhaps not in the cabin, but there's a world of difference between 18-20 hours, and 20-24 in the coughpit.

So the key question the next is: what crew does SQ use for that flight and how does it compare with what QF want to do? How many flight crew? How many cabin crew?

For additional comparison, how does QF crew the PER-LHR and rtn legs on the B787-9?

Singair (and the vast majority of other airlines) make heavy crews by adding a captain and FO for 4 man. So, any equivalent flight by just about any other airline would be 2 captains, and 2 FOs.

QF never carry more than one captain, and one FO. Additional crew are SOs. SOs are not take off or landing qualified, and are not allowed in the operating seats below FL200.

 

[p--and--t]

Singair (and the vast majority of other airlines) make heavy crews by adding a captain and FO for 4 man. So, any equivalent flight by just about any other airline would be 2 captains, and 2 FOs.

QF never carry more than one captain, and one FO. Additional crew are SOs. SOs are not take off or landing qualified, and are not allowed in the operating seats below FL200.

So is that the nub of the problem?

 

[NickCorr]

Perhaps not in the cabin, but there's a world of difference between 18-20 hours, and 20-24 in the coughpit.



Singair (and the vast majority of other airlines) make heavy crews by adding a captain and FO for 4 man. So, any equivalent flight by just about any other airline would be 2 captains, and 2 FOs.

QF never carry more than one captain, and one FO. Additional crew are SOs. SOs are not take off or landing qualified, and are not allowed in the operating seats below FL200.

That's really educational for me!! Had never appreciated that, so basically on all the 8+ hours flights the same Cap and FO will take off and land the plane, with the two SO, plus any others, that might be about for training etc. take the middle cruise part of the flight.

 

[Daver6]

Perhaps not in the cabin, but there's a world of difference between 18-20 hours, and 20-24 in the coughpit.



Singair (and the vast majority of other airlines) make heavy crews by adding a captain and FO for 4 man. So, any equivalent flight by just about any other airline would be 2 captains, and 2 FOs.

QF never carry more than one captain, and one FO. Additional crew are SOs. SOs are not take off or landing qualified, and are not allowed in the operating seats below FL200.

On these airlines where no FO is present, how do FOs get the experience and progress to a FO?

How does the salary of a QF captain and FO compare to that some of these other airlines (if you know)? Are they pretty much equivalent?

 

[p--and--t]

If this article is accurate looks like a deal for the aircraft is sealed...

Errors

www.executivetraveller.com

 

[justinbrett]

This means that Qantas will simultaneously be running three routes between Australia and London:

• the non-stop Boeing 787-9 from Perth to London (with the option for Melbourne-based travellers to begin this with a domestic Melbourne-Perth leg)
• the long-range Airbus A350-1000 Project Sunrise fleet flying non-stop from Sydney, Melbourne and potentially Brisbane to London
• the Airbus A380 superjumbo from Sydney (with connections for Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth) to London via Singapore

So that's potentially 5 routes, not 3. QF won't have the LHR slots for all these.
I'm tipping MEL/SYD/PER direct LHR. Possibly a BNE-SIN-LHR. But really I don't see the traffic demand on SIN-LHR with the direct options, so perhaps just a codeshare with BA.

Will this be the end of the EK alliance?

 

[JohnM]

Will this be the end of the EK alliance?

Don't say that!

 

[moa999]

Can't see BNE getting a direct flight for a while.
QF has as I understand 4 slots at LHR with 2 currently leased out.

 

[justinbrett]

Don't say that!

What is the point in the alliance when there's no overlap in routes? It's not like the old QF/BA JV or the new QF/AA one. With QF out of DXB and EK almost out of trans-Tasman, I feel like the QF/EK alliance has pretty much just turned into Qantas reselling EK seats and keeping a small share of the profits.

I think EK has lost a lot of shine since QF first signed the deal.

 

[JohnM]

EK is a good sink for QF FF redemptions. And I like EK F.

 

[jb747]

So is that the nub of the problem?

What, the crew structure? I have no idea what the company/Union issues are.

The issue that I have, is that having done very long tours of duty in the past, I’m all too well aware of just how useless most of the crew are at the end of such a tour. Me included.

That's really educational for me!! Had never appreciated that, so basically on all the 8+ hours flights the same Cap and FO will take off and land the plane, with the two SO, plus any others, that might be about for training etc. take the middle cruise part of the flight.

Captain and FO are in the seats below FL200. Above that there is a roster, made up the the Captain, which shares the time on or off. The SOs must be on with either the Captain or FO. There are lots of ways to make up the roster. Some people were very prescriptive, whilst others allowed quite a loose roster.

 

[justinbrett]

EK is a good sink for QF FF redemptions. And I like EK F.

I meant what is the point for Qantas - not what your personal preference is!

For the record, I think their Y product is rubbish and I'm actually not that wrapped in their J product.

There's nothing stopping QF having a FF deal with EK but calling it an alliance is a bit much. That made sense when they shared hubs - they no longer do. If QF go back to 4 flights into LHR and possibly CDG/FRA, they're gonna want get as many people on their own metal as possible. EK isn't bringing them any more passengers other than domestic.

 

[moa999]

I think EK has lost a lot of shine since QF first signed the deal.

Still serves more places in Europe than anyone else.
Never really had a great shine in Y, but agree there lack of improving J is hurting EK...

On the A350, I am liking some of the seat pitch information seemingly being leaked to friendly Journos.

Qantas Sunrise Project A350 to be "real dream machine" - Airline Ratings

The Qantas A350, which will operate the airline’s ultra-long-haul flights will indeed be a dream machine as well as a time machine taking passengers back to the roomy days when economy travel was pleasant. One insider in Sydney told AirlineRatings.com that the A350 will be the most spacious...

www.airlineratings.com

 

[justinbrett]

Still serves more places in Europe than anyone else.

Qantas Sunrise Project A350 to be "real dream machine" - Airline Ratings

The Qantas A350, which will operate the airline’s ultra-long-haul flights will indeed be a dream machine as well as a time machine taking passengers back to the roomy days when economy travel was pleasant. One insider in Sydney told AirlineRatings.com that the A350 will be the most spacious...

www.airlineratings.com

That may be so but doesn't justify why QF needs to keep the agreement at an alliance level - when effectively it's just handing business to another airline. It's not a two way deal (other than QF getting a kickback) like an alliance should be.

Assuming there is a BA connection within a few hours of the QF landings, a flight via LHR to Western Europe should be at least as quick as via DXB. It is a shame however that QF didn't move to T5 which would have made for easier connections.

 

[PineappleSkip]

BA can't fit all their own flights into T5. Didn't hear of them offering QF access there?? cheers skip

 

[justinbrett]

BA can't fit all their own flights into T5. Didn't hear of them offering QF access there?? cheers skip

I never said they offered it. But when T5 was being built, many (and allegedly including QF execs) assumed QF would move there eventually as well because at the time QF & BA had a Joint Service Agreement (JSA). It turned out not to be the case. Iberia now operate from T5 which wasn't expected at the time, as they merged a few years later.

 

[jase05]

That may be so but doesn't justify why QF needs to keep the agreement at an alliance level - when effectively it's just handing business to another airline. It's not a two way deal (other than QF getting a kickback) like an alliance should be.

Assuming there is a BA connection within a few hours of the QF landings, a flight via LHR to Western Europe should be at least as quick as via DXB. It is a shame however that QF didn't move to T5 which would have made for easier connections.

And be subjected to BA’s pathetic Euro J service, no thanks.
A stopover at DXB and then onwards to Europe with EK’s vastly superior product wins hands down for me
I don’t know the full details of the QF/EK alliance but there must be some decent benefits for both

 

[Himeno]

Assuming there is a BA connection within a few hours of the QF landings, a flight via LHR to Western Europe should be at least as quick as via DXB. It is a shame however that QF didn't move to T5 which would have made for easier connections.

Why would QF move to T5? BA doesn't have enough space for their own flights there as T5 currently exists. The only other airline in T5 is IB, which is the same company as BA.
QF moved from T4 to T3 during the airline moves when T5 opened to be with the rest oneworld (that were oneworld members at the time).

At some point, T2 is going to be expanded into the space occupied by T3 and T5 is going to get another concourse with the existing concourses extended to fit a few more gates, with the plan to have T2 and T5 in a "toast rack" layout between the existing runways, T4 to the south and maybe a new T6 to the north with the expected 3rd runway. Given that this was already meant to have happened, and hasn't, it is anyone's guess as to when it actually will. Until such time as there are more gates at T5, there is no possibility that QF, or any other oneworld non BA/IB flight, moving into T5.

 

[justinbrett]

Why would QF move to T5? BA doesn't have enough space for their own flights there as T5 currently exists. The only other airline in T5 is IB, which is the same company as BA.
QF moved from T4 to T3 during the airline moves when T5 opened to be with the rest oneworld (that were oneworld members at the time).

At some point, T2 is going to be expanded into the space occupied by T3 and T5 is going to get another concourse with the existing concourses extended to fit a few more gates, with the plan to have T2 and T5 in a "toast rack" layout between the existing runways, T4 to the south and maybe a new T6 to the north with the expected 3rd runway. Given that this was already meant to have happened, and hasn't, it is anyone's guess as to when it actually will. Until such time as there are more gates at T5, there is no possibility that QF, or any other oneworld non BA/IB flight, moving into T5.

OK - for the record when I said "It's a shame QF didn't move to T5" - I didn't mean they would, were going to, were offered to, were instructed to, were planning to, were promised to, or any variation thereof.

When we say "it's a shame x didn't happen" there is no indication that it was going to happen, just that it's a shame it didn't. Like, it's a shame I didn't win the lottery. It's a shame QF didn't open a Flounge in BNE.

Had the JSA continued, they probably would have moved eventually to T5 instead of IB (hell, the merger between QF & BA was planned before BA & IB). But QF ditched BA for EK which worked out for a time but I don't think it fits their future strategy.

 

[moa999]

To have T2 and T5 in a "toast rack" layout between the existing runways,

Think that's somewhat changed with the latest masterplan released mid-2019 with new 3rd runway. Instead a new T5 West extension and later a Northern satellite.

That may be so but doesn't justify why QF needs to keep the agreement at an alliance level - when effectively it's just handing business to another airline. It's not a two way deal

EK gets plenty - access to QF FFs, and domestic, NZ and South American.
Without the deal more would be going via DOH instead.