Qantas Block Partner Earn on Competitor Routes

[RichardMEL]

What if this change has come at the behest of QR rather than QF? What if it's QR basically saying - we've gotten into bed with VA so if you want to earn for flights in Oz, do it on VA? There's possibly an assumption here that this is a QF driven reaction to this.. but it may not be. I've no proof either way, but seems to me given the above comments that it could be QR pushing this to direct pax to VA. A bit like the reverse of the restrictions (coughpy) SC earn on MH on kangaroo route flights (and now KUL-DOH too which has a suspicious common element...).

Again, don't know.. but possibly a thought.

 

[justinbrett]

They may not, but that's not what the clause says. Qantas is purporting to stop QR (for example) awarding its own Avios to its own loyalty customers.

It's the operating airline (QF in this case) that pays for FF points (avios).

So this is consistent with the clause, QF won't pay for QR avios on QF domestic flights.

There's other oneworld examples where this occurs (like some MH fares)

I guess if QR wants to fund the points themselves, nothing stopping them.

What if this change has come at the behest of QR rather than QF? What if it's QR basically saying - we've gotten into bed with VA so if you want to earn for flights in Oz, do it on VA? There's possibly an assumption here that this is a QF driven reaction to this.. but it may not be. I've no proof either way, but seems to me given the above comments that it could be QR pushing this to direct pax to VA. A bit like the reverse of the restrictions (coughpy) SC earn on MH on kangaroo route flights (and now KUL-DOH too which has a suspicious common element...).

Again, don't know.. but possibly a thought.

It's odd it's in the QF T&Cs.

What next - will QR stop QFF earn on QR flights?

 

[kangarooflyer88]

From serfty's post above:
9.1.5 A member of a oneworld Member Airline or Airline Partner loyalty program will not earn that program’s loyalty points or status credits on any Qantas domestic flight where the oneworld Member Airline or Airline Partner permits their program points or status credits to be earned directly or indirectly on any non-Qantas Group flight on the same domestic route (where that domestic flight does not form part of a Qantas marketed international itinerary).

Parsing this because I'm slow ...

A member of a oneworld Member Airline or Airline Partner loyalty program
If I'm a member of QR Privilege Club...

will not earn that program’s loyalty points or status credits on any Qantas domestic flight
I won't earn QR Avios if I fly oneWorld partner Qantas ..

where the oneworld Member Airline or Airline Partner permits their program points or status credits to be earned directly or indirectly on any non-Qantas Group flight on the same domestic route
if QR allows me to earn Avios on any airline (Virgin) that flies on the same domestic route as the Qantas one I'm taking

(where that domestic flight does not form part of a Qantas marketed international itinerary).
except if I'm on a Qantas marketed international itinerary, then QR may award me Avios for my Qantas flight.

Ho hum. The usual Qantas arrogance -
How, pray tell, does Qantas propose to prevent QR awarding me Avios within its program?

And stupidity:
As others have noted, doesn't this incentivise people to fly Virgin and not Qantas?



They may not, but that's not what the clause says. Qantas is purporting to stop QR (for example) awarding its own Avios to its own loyalty customers.






There is no way Akbar Al Baker would give up the opportunity to torment Qantas. I expect him to offer double Avios for Qantas flights flown

...
I mean fair dinkum. Qantas have staff at Mascot squirreling away thinking up and implementing this sort of stuff??

That's your interpretation of the term, and I don't even know if it's the correct one. It seems like we'd need a lawyer to go through that term carefully to put it in plain English for us. Lots of mental gymnastics going on there. But I think the message from QF is clear: don't fly QR if you plan on crediting your flights to QF, and if you must fly QR at least credit it to Virgin where you'll earn something for your troubles.

Here's another thing to consider: will QF start stripping the QFF/OneWorld status benefits for these QF domestic segments at some point? Perhaps they'll take some of their aircraft, strip away the OneWorld logo and Qantas logos from the fuselage and livery and operate these planes for flights codeshared with QR. After all, we don't want QR travellers to receive QF treatment if they had the audacity to book with one of our partners!

-RooFlyer88

 

[Spacetravel]

That's your interpretation of the term, and I don't even know if it's the correct one. It seems like we'd need a lawyer to go through that term carefully to put it in plain English for us. Lots of mental gymnastics going on there. But I think the message from QF is clear: don't fly QR if you plan on crediting your flights to QF, and if you must fly QR at least credit it to Virgin where you'll earn something for your troubles.

Here's another thing to consider: will QF start stripping the QFF/OneWorld status benefits for these QF domestic segments at some point? Perhaps they'll take some of their aircraft, strip away the OneWorld logo and Qantas logos from the fuselage and livery and operate these planes for flights codeshared with QR. After all, we don't want QR travellers to receive QF treatment if they had the audacity to book with one of our partners!

-RooFlyer88

QF are really making themselves hard to love. A solution is join BA executive club and credit to BA on both QF and QR. As far as I am aware BA don’t do any reduced earn gymnastics for OW members?

 

[justinbrett]

That's your interpretation of the term, and I don't even know if it's the correct one. It seems like we'd need a lawyer to go through that term carefully to put it in plain English for us. Lots of mental gymnastics going on there. But I think the message from QF is clear: don't fly QR if you plan on crediting your flights to QF, and if you must fly QR at least credit it to Virgin where you'll earn something for your troubles.

Here's another thing to consider: will QF start stripping the QFF/OneWorld status benefits for these QF domestic segments at some point? Perhaps they'll take some of their aircraft, strip away the OneWorld logo and Qantas logos from the fuselage and livery and operate these planes for flights codeshared with QR. After all, we don't want QR travellers to receive QF treatment if they had the audacity to book with one of our partners!

-RooFlyer88

Or maybe trying to influence QR policy

Surely any VA booking would only use VA metal connecting to QR international. To book on QF, as there's no QR codeshare, VA would literally be booking pax on their rival. Can't happen.

QR bookings however could use QR codeshare (VA) or QF. If it's connecting to QR international than it isn't included in the clause.

So effectively it's just QR bookings by QR members on Australian domestic flights. I've not seen that QR can earn avios on VA domestic bookings (not connecting to intl). Maybe this is trying to force that it won't be included?

Here's another thing to consider: will QF start stripping the QFF/OneWorld status benefits for these QF domestic segments at some point? Perhaps they'll take some of their aircraft, strip away the OneWorld logo and Qantas logos from the fuselage and livery and operate these planes for flights codeshared with QR. After all, we don't want QR travellers to receive QF treatment if they had the audacity to book with one of our partners!

-RooFlyer88

The flip side of this, I have a VA award booking on QR, and I'm using my QFF WP status and will get lounge entry, whilst a VA WP wouldn't get it. QF isn't funding a cent to this flight.

It works both ways.

 

[RooFlyer]

It's the operating airline (QF in this case) that pays for FF points (avios).

So this is consistent with the clause, QF won't pay for QR avios on QF domestic flights.

Payment for the Avios has nothing to do with the clause. It says that the flyer will not earn the other airline's loyalty points etc.

Any idea how Qantas will stop me earning or QR awarding its Avios after I've flown on the Qantas flight?

That's your interpretation of the term, and I don't even know if it's the correct one. It seems like we'd need a lawyer to go through that term carefully to put it in plain English for us. Lots of mental gymnastics going on there. But I think the message from QF is clear: don't fly QR if you plan on crediting your flights to QF, and if you must fly QR at least credit it to Virgin where you'll earn something for your troubles.

Here's another thing to consider: will QF start stripping the QFF/OneWorld status benefits for these QF domestic segments at some point? Perhaps they'll take some of their aircraft, strip away the OneWorld logo and Qantas logos from the fuselage and livery and operate these planes for flights codeshared with QR. After all, we don't want QR travellers to receive QF treatment if they had the audacity to book with one of our partners!

-RooFlyer88

Sure, its my interpretation and I even parsed the clause in plainer English to illustrate my interpretation .

Again, it has nothing to do with Qantas saying "don't fly QR if you plan on crediting your flights to QF, and if you must fly QR at least credit it to Virgin where you'll earn something for your troubles" - its saying fly Qantas by all means but if you do, you will not earn that other program’s loyalty points if (... other conditions). Note the negative affirmative will not. Not 'may not' or 'may not be eligible for', Qantas is saying that (in the running example), QR will not award me Avios ... I mean, how arrogant can you get?

 

[kangarooflyer88]

QF are really making themselves hard to love. A solution is join BA executive club and credit to BA on both QF and QR. As far as I am aware BA don’t do any reduced earn gymnastics for OW members?

It's a solution, but I don't know if it's a good one! I know a lot of folks will point to the fact that it's even easier to earn status on BA, which I get, and heck there are some benefits of being a BA Elite over a QF Elite (i.e. access to MCE on AA), but for me one of the stand out features of QF is that you can earn lifetime status at different tiers. Sure you can earn Lifetime Gold with BA (OWE) but that's 35K tier points. With QF it's just 14,000 SCs to earn lifetime Gold (OWS).

I will also point out that different airlines do incentivize flying on certain partners. For instance, whilst Delta does award MQM on most SkyTeam operated flights, those flights operated by their Core partners like KL or AF earn MQMs at an accelerated rate, comparable to DL. In other words, all partners are equal to the airlines, except some partners are more equal than others.

But what QF is doing here is something completely different. They are cutting off their nose to spite their face! Whereas travellers might be tempted to credit their QR flights to QFF before this T&C change, now this rule change makes them reconsider. Sydney to London on QR in discount economy return will earn 140 status credits with QR which puts you at roughly a quarter of the SCs needed to re-qualify for Gold. Travelling in discount J to LHR on QR one could easily retain Virgin Gold with just this one trip! Makes you really want to reconsider your loyalties doesn't it?

-RooFlyer88

 

[SYD]

That's your interpretation of the term, and I don't even know if it's the correct one. It seems like we'd need a lawyer to go through that term carefully to put it in plain English for us. Lots of mental gymnastics going on there. But I think the message from QF is clear: don't fly QR if you plan on crediting your flights to QF, and if you must fly QR at least credit it to Virgin where you'll earn something for your troubles.

That doesn’t seem to be the consensus view on this change and the current QF earning tables don’t support that.

Don‘t fly QF domestically if you’re planning on crediting to QR. Other than part of a QR international ticket.

 

[UP4014]

Looks like Section 9.1.5 has been moved to 9.1.6 and a new 9.1.5 added:

Maybe a dig at QR and their relationship with VA?

People saying weird and bizarre, the weird and bizarre thing is serfty's life has turned into spending his Sundays reading an airline's fine print.

 

[justinbrett]

Payment for the Avios has nothing to do with the clause. It says that the flyer will not earn the other airline's loyalty points etc.

It has everything to do with the clause because operating airlines paying for points is a pre-requisite for the points to be awarded.

Any idea how Qantas will stop me earning or QR awarding its Avios after I've flown on the Qantas flight?

Easy. QF won't pay QR for it. One would assume QR won't award its avios if they didn't get paid for it.

 

[RooFlyer]

What if this change has come at the behest of QR rather than QF? What if it's QR basically saying - we've gotten into bed with VA so if you want to earn for flights in Oz, do it on VA? There's possibly an assumption here that this is a QF driven reaction to this.. but it may not be. I've no proof either way, but seems to me given the above comments that it could be QR pushing this to direct pax to VA. A bit like the reverse of the restrictions (coughpy) SC earn on MH on kangaroo route flights (and now KUL-DOH too which has a suspicious common element...).

Interesting suggestion, but I can't see why QF would be dumb enough to agree to inserting a T&C clause that drives pax to Virgin. # . QR would simply amend their own T&Cs.

# Oh.

 

[RooFlyer]

It has everything to do with the clause because operating airlines paying for points is a pre-requisite for the points to be awarded.


Easy. QF won't pay QR for it. One would assume QR won't award its avios if they didn't get paid for it.

It may be the driver and in fact occur in the background, but payment is simply not in the clause as written. These are formal T&Cs, not one of their gibberish e-mails. QR can allow its loyalty customers to earn its loyalty points for anything it damn well pleases, yet Qantas saying that I will not earn QR's loyalty points after a Qantas flight (... other conditions) - definitive and absolute!!

Qantas may have written "... (all the conditions) ... Qantas will not facilitate the awarding of the other airline's loyalty points .... " or something like that. Then its warning that Qantas will take some action to try to have you denied points by the other airline.

But no - it says that I will not earn (by the way, that's not the same as awarded ).

 

[serfty]

People saying weird and bizarre, the weird and bizarre thing is serfty's life has turned into spending his Sundays reading an airline's fine print.

Turned into? I've various versions Qantas of T&C going back to the 90's.

 

[justinbrett]

It may be the driver and in fact occur in the background, but payment is simply nothing to do with the clause as written. These are formal T&Cs, not one of their gibberish e-mails. QR can allow its loyalty customers to earn its loyalty points for anything it damn well pleases, yet Qantas saying that I will not earn QR's loyalty points after a Qantas flight (... other conditions) - definitive and absolute!!

Qantas may have written "... (all the conditions) ... Qantas will not facilitate the awarding of the other airline's loyalty points .... " or something like that. Then its warning that Qantas will take some action to try to have you denied points by the other airline.

But no - it says that I will not earn (by the way, that's not the same as awarded).

I think we all agree it's weird it's in QF's T&Cs.

But I think the way you are wording this is that QR is the one that gives you the avios. It is not. Avios is a currency. Whatever airline or service (other than QR) is the one "allowing you to earn" / awarding the Avios.

Same way Woolies / AMEX etc are the ones giving you QFF points for their programs.

QR is the bank in this situation. QF is the one saying they're not making the transfer to QR. That's their right (there's other oneworld examples that don't earn any QFF points).

But yes, mostly, it's weird it's in the QFF T&Cs.

 

[oz_mark]

That's your interpretation of the term, and I don't even know if it's the correct one. It seems like we'd need a lawyer to go through that term carefully to put it in plain English for us. Lots of mental gymnastics going on there. But I think the message from QF is clear: don't fly QR if you plan on crediting your flights to QF, and if you must fly QR at least credit it to Virgin where you'll earn something for your troubles.

Although the term, as written, is that it is about creditting QF domestic sectors to QR.

You're fine creditting QR flighst to QF.

 

[oz_mark]

But yes, mostly, it's weird it's in the QFF T&Cs.

I even wonder if it may be a unfair term....

 

[RooFlyer]

But I think the way you are wording this is that QR is the one that gives you the avios.

Sorry, no, I’m not. I’m simply saying that Qantas is purporting to say that I will not earn on another Airline’s loyalty program. QR is exactly the one who may or may not award Avios and sure, Qantas is the one who will pay for it. But as I questioned above, how does Qantas purport to stop me earning on another airlines loyalty program?

QF is the one saying they're not making the transfer to QR.

Sorry again, no, they are not. They are saying definitively that I will not earn on the other airline’s loyalty program.

As I said above, these are formal T&Cs, and so must be able to be interpreted exactly as they are written. As far as formal T&Cs are concerned, earning ( acquiring a right) should not be the same as awarding ( receiving what has been earned).

I don’t disagree that what you’re saying, is probably the intent of the clause, but what they have written is simply bizarre and we are entitled to interpret it as written.

Post automatically merged: Jan 31, 2023

I even wonder if it may be an unfair term....

Unenforceable?

 

[justinbrett]

Sorry, no, I’m not. I’m simply saying that Qantas is purporting to say that I will not earn on another Airline’s loyalty program. QR is exactly the one who may or may not award Avios and sure, Qantas is the one who will pay for it. But as I questioned above, how does Qantas purport to stop me earning on another airlines loyalty program?


Sorry again, no, they are not. They are saying definitively that I will not earn on the other airline’s loyalty program.

As I said above, these are formal T&Cs, and so must be able to be interpreted exactly as they are written. As far as formal T&Cs are concerned, earning ( acquiring a right) should not be the same as awarding ( receiving what has been earned).

I don’t disagree that what you’re saying, is probably the intent of the clause, but what they have written is simply bizarre and we are entitled to interpret it as written.

Post automatically merged: Jan 31, 2023

Unenforceable?

Well the whole thing is moot because QR PC pax flying QF aren't subject to the QFF T&Cs.

Perhaps the intent is for QFF members who are also QR PC members, they should credit to QF and not QR. I can't see why else they'd put it in the QFF T&Cs.

But I think you are getting hung up on QR being the only one who can supply you with Avios. That's not how it works, but I don't want to go around this circle again.

 

[RooFlyer]

Well the whole thing is moot because a QR PC pax flying QF aren't subject to the QFF T&Cs.

Almost moot, but if I’m a QFF member and a QR PC member and I take that Qantas flight and I earn the QR Avios, then it would seem that I would be in breach of the QFF T&Cs and perhaps Qantas would want to take action against that? Silly no doubt, but no sillier and this stupidly worded clause.

But I think you are getting hung up on QR being the only one who can supply you with Avios. That's not how it works, but I don't want to go around this circle again.

I’m not sure how many times I need to say this and even bold it, but I’m only thing I’m hung up on is Qantas purporting to deny my earning Avios under the conditions stated - nothing to do with them being awarded or paid for or whatever. Earning is what’s in the amended clause, not awarding.

As I said above, Qantas could’ve amended its T&Cs to say that Qantas will not facilitate the awarding of other programs loyalty points, or even plainly say that they won’t pay for them if earned. But no.

 

[justinbrett]

Almost moot, but if I’m a QFF member and a QR PC member and I take that Qantas flight and I earn the QR Avios, then it would seem that I would be in breach of the QFF T&Cs and perhaps Qantas would want to take action against that? Silly no doubt, but no sillier and this stupidly worded clause.


I’m not sure how many times I need to say this and even bold it, but I’m only thing I’m hung up on is Qantas purporting to deny my earning Avios under the conditions stated - nothing to do with them being awarded or paid for or whatever. Earning is what’s in the amended clause, not awarding.

As I said above, Qantas could’ve amended its T&Cs to say that Qantas will not facilitate the awarding of other programs loyalty points, or even plainly say that they won’t pay for them if earned. But no.

So if woolworths said that you won't earn QFF points on liquor, are you going to get mad at woolworths for denying your right to earn QFF points?

Seems logical to me the entity paying for the points can deny your right to earn them for their service. You're free to earn them from another entity.