Qantas Delays/Cancellations

[Melburnian1]

milehighclub, you quoted the time when the A332 pushed back from Terminal 1 at MNL, as in 'departed', which was 38 minutes late (2043 hours). I quoted the time that it was airborne after taxiing: 2122 hours.

I cannot see the logic of not advising a new departure time because it is impossible for an A332 to turn around in less than 65 minutes. However in this case, I have to concede that the airline (QF) only knew about the exact time of arrival at MNL at the 'last minute' due to the inbound flight having a slow approach thanks to congestion in the air. So changing the cutoff for check would have been pretty much academic.

As a matter of principle, however, surely these publicly displayed departure times on websites, or in 'flight updates' delivered to one's 'device' ought to be accurate. If the aircraft arrives at 1921, it has no chance of departing before 2021 as all the tasks required take at least an hour as noted above for this size of aircraft.

On Thursday 2 June, QF403, the 0645 from SYD down to MEL was airborne at 0738 and with aircraft B738 Vh-VZV should arrive at about 0850 hours, half an hour behind schedule.

 

[mannej]

milehighclub, you quoted the time when the A332 pushed back from Terminal 1 at MNL, as in 'departed', which was 38 minutes late (2043 hours). I quoted the time that it was airborne after taxiing: 2122 hours.

The time you have quoted is somewhat out of the control of the airlines once they have pushed back is it not (hence the reason for padded schedules etc)? Have you not already had this discussion before with some of those in the know about the actual standards used in the industry for this?

I cannot see the logic of not advising a new departure time because it is impossible for an A332 to turn around in less than 65 minutes. However in this case, I have to concede that the airline (QF) only knew about the exact time of arrival at MNL at the 'last minute' due to the inbound flight having a slow approach thanks to congestion in the air. So changing the cutoff for check would have been pretty much academic.

As a matter of principle, however, surely these publicly displayed departure times on websites, or in 'flight updates' delivered to one's 'device' ought to be accurate. If the aircraft arrives at 1921, it has no chance of departing before 2021 as all the tasks required take at least an hour as noted above for this size of aircraft.

Out of interest, how quickly does the 332 turn around domestically?

 

[Melburnian1]

On Thursday 2 June, the first of the morning's BNE to MEL flights, QF605, was cancelled.

QF2051, the 0815 hours from MEL to DPO, is delayed until an expected 0910 hours in its departure. QF2078, the 0825 MEL to MQL wil instead depart 70 minutes late at 0935.

QF610 (0910 hours MEL north to BNE) has been cancelled.

QF6670 (which may be a 'ferry' flight) was timetabled for an 0800 hours departure from SYD that will now occur at 0959 for its trip to BNE, with arrival at the very exact time of 1218 rather than 1000. Is this an A330 going to the paint shop for application of the latest QF livery? FlightAware does not yet have this flight number shown as active for 2 June.

 

[jb747]

By pushing the thrust levers to the TOGA detent causes several actions - activates the go around mode if the aircraft is in approach mode - autothrottles to GA thrust as computed by FMC, autopilot no longer follows approach glideslope? and autopilot flies a missed approach path?

If the autopilot is already engaged, it will pitch up. If not it just changes the flight director display.

The auto thrust does nothing. It isn't engaged in TO/GA. You've already pushed the levers to the power.

Is a "missed approach" and "go around" the same?

More or less, though I'd take one as being an unsuccessful instrument approach, whereas a go around can come from anything.

 

[Melburnian1]

At 1800 hours on Thursday 2 June, 'The Age' online was reporting that a 'low haze' was causing some disruption at MEL. It singled out Tigerair (TT) as particularly hit, but the paywall stopped me from reading all the article.

So far QF460, the 1830 hours from MEL to SYD has been cancelled, while QF2086, the 1855 hours MEL to MQL is expected to instead depart 65 minutes late at 2000 hours. Inbound to MEL, QF469 (the 1615 hours ex SYD) and QF451 (the scheduled 1715 hours departure) were both cancelled. QF463, the 1830 hours SYD down to MEL and QF467, the 1930 hours departure ex SYD are also cancelled.

There is still just sufficient time for someone marooned at SYD to rush back to Central station and catch the 2032 XPT of NSWTrainLink to MEL, which depending on how full the remaining QF flights ex SYD are this evening might be a more reliable way of arriving in the centre of Melbourne by 0800 hours tomorrow morning. While I partly jest, I know individuals who have done this in the past and had the last laugh on passengers delayed by airlines until mid morning the next morning.

 

[jb747]

Last time I travelled on the train, the woman in the seat ahead spent the entire journey on the phone. And to ensure that we had full enjoyment, she repeated just about 100% of the inanity said by the person at the other end. There was very nearly a murder.

 

[jb747]

At 1800 hours on Thursday 2 June, 'The Age' online was reporting that a 'low haze' was causing some disruption at MEL. It singled out Tigerair (TT) as particularly hit, but the paywall stopped me from reading all the article.

As of 20:00 the aviation weather report has visibility as 500 metres in fog, so less than CAT I. I doubt that Tiger has any low vis approvals. Not sure of Virgin's status with this either. They didn't a couple of years ago, but presumably that's changed by now. Early in the day for fog.

 

[Melburnian1]

Last time I travelled on the train, the woman in the seat ahead spent the entire journey on the phone. And to ensure that we had full enjoyment, she repeated just about 100% of the inanity said by the person at the other end. There was very nearly a murder.

Many of us may have had the displeasure of experiencing individuals who talk loudly, or incessantly, or both on public transport. If it begins to occur en masse on airlines, given that there is often less ability to move away, there might be similar dire consequences.

 

[Melburnian1]

As of 20:00 the aviation weather report has visibility as 500 metres in fog, so less than CAT I. I doubt that Tiger has any low vis approvals. Not sure of Virgin's status with this either. They didn't a couple of years ago, but presumably that's changed by now. Early in the day for fog.

Thank you jb547. When I checked earlier - this may have changed - JQ appeared to be less severely affected than QF. This does not seem logical, because one would expect QF to have more 'approvals' and to have the best technical equipment to minimise such fog related disruptions. Can one of our tech crew or technically minded AFFers explain this apparent discrepancy?

 

[jb747]

Who knows? Perhaps their ops control hasn't caught up with the fact that the fog even exists. The biggest issue with regards to fog in Oz isn't the airlines or aircraft, but the extremely limited support from the ground. You won't find many pilots who'll describe it as any better than third world aviation.

The Age article that you couldn't read wasn't worth reading. Funny that they call it low haze, when within the article they have this line "Flights arriving to or departing from Melbourne Airport this evening are expected to be impacted by heavy fog," the airline announced in a statement. "

 

[nonscenic]

At 1800 hours on Thursday 2 June, 'The Age' online was reporting that a 'low haze' was causing some disruption at MEL. It singled out Tigerair (TT) as particularly hit, but the paywall stopped me from reading all the article.

So far QF460, the 1830 hours from MEL to SYD has been cancelled, while QF2086, the 1855 hours MEL to MQL is expected to instead depart 65 minutes late at 2000 hours. Inbound to MEL, QF469 (the 1615 hours ex SYD) and QF451 (the scheduled 1715 hours departure) were both cancelled. QF463, the 1830 hours SYD down to MEL and QF467, the 1930 hours departure ex SYD are also cancelled.

With an alternate for fog , YMML will be down to single runway ILS approaches so the landing slots will be reduced. Its 2700 metres vis at 1000 UTC (8pm) but likely to become a pea souper underneath a strong low level inversion. (Above the inversion there will be a fresh ENE gradient (1000metre) wind.

 

[Melburnian1]

Indeed, I eventually found a way to read it. 'Low haze' is surely not a synonym for a 'heavy fog' or 'pea souper' if I recall the English term. Presumably aircraft could always operate in a 'low haze?'

Thank you jb747 and nonscenic for the excellent explanations.

 

[jb747]

BTW, what's a 547?

 

[Quickstatus]

QF 94 is currently south of the Hawaiian Islands and is scheduled for MEL at the usual time. No indication of a fog related diversion yet. As JB747 said before the final decision point to divert (usually to SYD) is somewhere over/near ABX though an earlier decision to Splash and Dash in SYD may be taken.

 

[nonscenic]

Looking at cancelled flights into YMML this evening
QF451 from SYD
VA746 from OOL
VA874 from SYD
QF463 from SYD
TT472 from ADL
QF467 from SYD
TT287 from SYD
JQ961 from PER
Presumably operational decisions on whether the plane can take extra fuel for an Alternate and strategic placement of aircraft in case tomorrow morning is bad in MEL
The cancellations from SYD probably reflect that the weather there is less than average too

 

[jb747]

QF 94 is currently south of the Hawaiian Islands and is scheduled for MEL at the usual time. No indication of a fog related diversion yet. As JB747 said before the final decision point to divert (usually to SYD) is somewhere over/near ABX though an earlier decision to Splash and Dash in SYD may be taken.

94's planned route takes it almost over Sydney. The forecast has fog at Melbourne, but it has Avalon clearing about 6 hours earlier. If that holds, and they can handle the holding at Melbourne then they'd be able to use Avalon as the alternate. As long as you can legally do the approach, the 380 will almost certainly land. But, if the holding blows out, or Avalon's fog is extended, then the splash and dash becomes more likely.

 

[Quickstatus]

Ah thanks JB747, I didn't know AVV was a valid A380 alternate. Without immigration control everyone will have to stay onboard while it S&D while waiting for MEL (unlike SYD).

Has QF10/94 or an A380 diverted to AVV before?

 

[jb747]

This has probably been touched upon in the pilot thread.

There's two types of alternate (in my mind). The one that you use purely to make your approach to destination legal, but which you'd never actually want to go to, and a true alternate, which you'd be happy to use. Avalon fits into the former category.

No 380s have had to use it that I know of, though Virgin ended up there when the lights failed at Melbourne a couple of weeks ago.

 

[nonscenic]

Still looks like too much of a NW'ly surface drift across AVV and MEL and too strong an easterly flow above the inversion for too thick a fog. Still there is a PROB 30 for fog from 1200 to 030100 UTC so all the long hauls overnight will need an Alternate.
At least YMML has alternates not too far away. Fog at YPPH has seen some interesting diversions in the past, including then PM Malcolm Fraser being on a flight diverted to Meekatharra in 1977 which he described as 'the end of the earth'

 

[Melburnian1]

Looking at cancelled flights into YMML this evening...Presumably operational decisions on whether the plane can take extra fuel for an Alternate and strategic placement of aircraft in case tomorrow morning is bad in MEL
The cancellations from SYD probably reflect that the weather there is less than average too

nonscenic, fair point but in the event of fog tomorrow (which you have since informed us is only a 30 per cent chance for MEL), or heavy rain as predicted for SYD (and I think BNE) between Saturday and Monday, keeping a few planes in one location if an airline has 100 or 60 running around Australia will not obviate all delays and cancellations.

If one of SYD, MEL or to a lesser extent BNE has major (weather related) problems, many other flights and passengers are adversely affected because of the varying flight rosters and, despite more 'city pairs' being connected by nonstop flights than 20 years ago, still reasonable numbers of connecting passengers - including the occasional AFF member on a so-called status run.