Qantas Delays/Cancellations

[JessicaTam]

Re: QF41 delay

Not that was on any of the affected flights, however I found it interesting to see the changes to the timetables due to one delayed flight.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF41 delay

Not that was on any of the affected flights, however I found it interesting to see the changes to the timetables due to one delayed flight.

flight stats also shows flights and is more indepth than your observations, including the fact although QF9 is late more often than not, it's EK counterpart isn't performing that much better.

nlagalle, I haven't mentioned QF9 in this thread (although I did in another). EK is an odd choice to compare with QF. The two airlines are in a much publicised alliance. While they each still want to maximise revenue through corporates or individual travellers booking with them rather than their partner airline, if I worked for QF I'd be far more concerned about how QF's punctuality and reputation was performing vis-a-vis VA, NZ, SQ, CX, MH, D7, PR, EY, TG, VS, DL and a number of others than to compare with partner EK.

JessicaTam, what my analysis shows is how lengthy delays sometimes take a couple of days or longer to clear on a network such as QF's SYD to southeast Asia or back flights, where the aircraft typically do not have the benefit of 17 hour or so layovers as is the case for the longhaul A380 routes at LAX or LHR.

Delays may cascade to flights on subsequent days, and will only stop if a particular aircraft is due to go off roster for planned maintenance (and be replaced by another fresh ex the maintenance hangar) or where the flights and turnarounds can make up sufficient time during a few sectors. Perhaps on some days there is a spare, suitable aircraft in SYD that is not undergoing maintenance, but that comes at a financial cost to airlines such as QF that in recent years have failed to pay shareholders any dividends and hence presumably try to avoid having assets worth millions of dollars sitting around doing very little. Of course, some of QF's aircraft (767s and 747s come to mind, not so much the A330s used on many southeast Asian flights) may be so old that they are fully depreciated in the accounts.

For instance, Sunday's QF41/42 rotation SYD-CGK-SYD made up about an hour and a half by the time it arrived back in SYD today just before 1300 hours, but this wasn't sufficient to stop a lengthy four hour delay to Manila-bound QF19. In turn, not only will QF20 be late tonight despite the generous three hour Monday timetabled turnaround in MNL, but QF23 or another mid morning QF southeast Asian flight tomorrow is highly likely to be late. So in this case, delays from one aircraft having something wrong with it (the airline industry loves to use euphemisms such as 'going tech!') are pretty likely to result in at least three days' of flights being late.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: QF41 delay

EK is an odd choice to compare with QF. The two airlines are in a much publicised alliance. While they each still want to maximise revenue through corporates or individual travellers booking with them rather than their partner airline, if I worked for QF I'd be far more concerned about how QF's punctuality and reputation was performing vis-a-vis VA, NZ, SQ, CX, MH, D7, PR, EY, TG, VS, DL and a number of others than to compare with partner EK.

Why? You've been banging on about QF9 being late all the time, so it was a start. Besides how many other airlines fly MEL-DXB??

And being that QF and VA mainly compete on domestic legs, the stats already show QF ahead.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF41 delay

Unfortunately for QF, it has multiple competitors on some Asian routes (Australia to SIN is one example from some cities such as SYD) while on routes with only one competitor that offers direct flights (such as SYD - CGK), the 'opposition' (in that case GA) is increasingly well regarded by the travelling public. Look at the positive press GA has attracted through its fleet and image makeover, despite its unforeseen difficulties in being unable to commence European flights when it had hoped due to runway weight restrictions for 773s at CGK airport.

This explains why QF is so sensitive about the airline's unpunctuality being discussed in any public setting. However the facts about QF41's long delay on Sunday affecting other QF southeast Asian flights as we start the week are irrefutable. Such delays as Sunday's on the CGK run must be doubly galling for QF management because they know that the European Union has given its 'tick' of approval to GA in allowing it back to Europe, as the EU also has with PR, another airline that should resume flights to Europe in a year or so, providing yet more competition for the Red Roo.

 

[docjames]

Re: QF41 delay

Interesting look at "service recovery" following delay.

Not surprised they chose the mnl flight to take the delay - least competition on that route.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF41 delay

docjames, both SYD - CGK and SYD - MNL have only one 'direct flight' competitor: GA and PR respectively.

Interestingly, GA and QF fly on the same days from SYD to CGK in that direction (Sundays, Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays).

On the SYD - MNL route in that direction, it's a little less frequent. QF usually operate every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday (although occasionally it drops the Tuesday flight) while PR also operate every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday northbound. The PR aircraft, a B773ER is about half the age and has a considerably larger passenger capacity than QF's A333s on the MNL route.

As always, while competition or lack thereof on route X or Y might be a factor in deciding which flight drew the short straw and was delayed ex SYD due to QF42's delayed arrival, a more important consideration is likely to be how to minimise overall ongoing delays to the network. Clearly, with tonight's MNL layover being three hours and 20 minutes, that's longer than the turnarounds in BKK or PDG, so with time being money in every transport sub-sector but especially aviation given the costs that rapidly mount (extra payments to crew, the possibility that some crew may be out of hours if delays go on too long and passengers missing connections), delaying the MNL flight was probably the best available choice to make.

 

[madrooster]

Re: QF41 delay

Interesting look at "service recovery" following delay.

Not surprised they chose the mnl flight to take the delay - least competition on that route.

At the same time MNL has the least likelihood of onward connections...

 

[docjames]

Re: QF41 delay

Agree with both those points.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF41 delay

I am watching the delayed QF19 in the queue approaching Manila NAIA Airport. Unlike PR337 from PVG in front of it, QF19 hasn't had to do multiple go arounds, but it has now lost time ex SYD as it is already 4 hours and 12 minutes late and has yet to arrive at the gate. Sometimes in MNL they can be in and out (the flight that is) in 65 minutes with an A330 so we'll see....

 

[mannej]

Re: QF41 delay

nlagalle, if we care about our fellow TAFFers, it's good to let them know how particular airlines are performing. QF International isn't going too well - routes have been cancelled left right and centre (as the home page of TAFF highlights in http://www.australianfrequentflyer....-the-demise-international-qantas-flights.html ), market share is gradually but consistently being lost to other airlines and the fleet is quite old (although that may improve a bit) and the newest planes are going to JQ not QF.

While I appreciate that many who work in the industry may not like delays being publicised, some passengers find it useful, particularly if there's a lounge visit as part of an individual's 'pre flight preparation.'

Many of us over the years have heard staff at airlines either decline to tell passengers why a particular flight is late, or give a reason that is not true. This rankles!

QF fleet quite old? Can you get off that high horse. We have discussed this previously. Their fleet average age is within a year or so of the list of airlines that you harp on about. They are currently removing the 767's, 734's and all but 9 of their 747's are being retired. The comment about the newest planes going to JQ isn't quite true, as QF have picked up new 738's and 332's within the last year or so.
If you look into the QFi fleet, the only real planes you can consider old are a group of 747's. it is funny the delayed flights you have been harping on about involve the youngest aircraft of the QFi fleet, the 380's. what does that say about your logic?

I'm with Nick with this one, Get the blinkers off (and don't misquote me about how "lucky" QF have been not to have a fatality in the jet age)

 

[basso]

Re: QF41 delay

Many of us over the years have heard staff at airlines either decline to tell passengers why a particular flight is late, or give a reason that is not true. This rankles!

Does it really matter why a flight is late? Most times I get told it's due to late arrival of the operating aircraft. To find out why it was late arriving can take some detective work back through it's operating history over the last day or so, and might be something as mundane as having gone through Sydney a few times that day!

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF41 delay

QF19 landed at MNL at 2121 local time tonight, four hours and 21 minutes late. This has been a logical progression from yesterday's QF41 significantly behind time departure ex SYD.

mannej, this thread was originally about QF41's delay. QF's average age of its fleet (omitting Jetstar Australia and the other Jetstar operators) is 10.3 years. GA's average fleet age is 6.5 years. That's a difference of almost 50 per cent for youthfulness in favour of GA overall.

QF's A380s do not operate the SYD - CGK QF41/42 rotations, nor do they operate QF19/20 to and from MNL. A333s seating 297 passengers have that honour. From memory, an A380 has been once to MNL but I don't believe that NAIA there has aerobridges configured at T1 or T2 for these much larger aircraft. QF's A380s seat 484 now after QF added extra whY seats and removed a few J seats. Apart from perhaps having to submit documentation for regulatory approval for any increase in the number of weekly seats, I doubt that the SYD - CGK and MNL routes would sustain an A388 at the same weekly frequency with its more than 50 per cent capacity jump above an A333.

For the record, major Australian competitor VA has an average age of its aircraft of 4.3 years - about 60 per cent younger on average than QF's whole mainline fleet.

TT is 4.9, EY 5.1, D7 5.6, SQ 7.5, MH 9.3, CX 9.5, PR 9.6 (with substantial refleeting underway) and NZ 10.1. Only TG at 11.8 years' average age is typically older. The (Australian) JQ is 5.3 years but that is older than major competitor TT. QF close associate EK is 6.4.

The facts speak for themselves. If and when QF receives new planes, we can again examine the relative fleet ages, but some other competitor airlines are likely to have similarly reequipped their fleets in the process, although both major manufacturers have large order backlogs. Many TAFFers know that QF operates an older fleet than most of its competitors. A typical comment is 'why didn't a QF former CEO order those innovative and as it turns out successful 773s so beloved of Asian airlines?'

Provided fleets are well maintained, older fleets may not be a problem as such (except that they may be dated), but they tend to push up operating costs or not reduce them to the feasible minimum as Boeing and Airbus continually suggest that their newest offerings are more fuel efficient.

 

[mannej]

Re: QF41 delay

For the record I don't care what configuration each of those said planes operate with, that info is a space filler with no relevance.
You have mentioned the age of the fleet when mentioning these delays. So far, I am failing to see any relevance as the delays have affected the Airbus section of the QFi fleet. The oldest of the fleet (747's) can be up to double the age of the older 330's, so once again why mention age?
QF have been taking new 737 and 332's on board, while retiring older aircraft in the fleet, which is reducing the average age of the fleet. There is no significant difference between 9.6 and 10.3, so you could argue that PR's fleet is relatively old could you not? Also, there have been atleast 12 visits of QF A380's to MNL...
Nothing has changed my opinion that a fair few of these comments (*cough* QF safety record *cough*) sound like they are coming from an armchair critic making assumptions without the full information available.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF41 delay

Interesting look at "service recovery" following delay.

Monday night's QF20 departed MNL at 2225 local time after a 64 minute turnaround - I made an earlier comment about '65 minutes' being achievable - and is due at SYD at 0835 this morning, 2 hours and 10 minutes late, subject as always to the requirements of our friends in 'Sydney tower.'

So while Tuesday (like Wednesday) tends to be a quieter day for flights and this aircraft may be able to have a bit of a rest, the tally is now up to four southeast Asian flights significantly delayed from one incident on Sunday affecting one QF aircraft. Some passengers this morning booked ex MNL to other Australian domestic ports will miss their timetabled connection.

 

[sydstar]

Re: QF41 delay

Monday night's QF20 departed MNL at 2225 local time after a 64 minute turnaround - I made an earlier comment about '65 minutes' being achievable - and is due at SYD at 0835 this morning, 2 hours and 10 minutes late, subject as always to the requirements of our friends in 'Sydney tower.'

So while Tuesday (like Wednesday) tends to be a quieter day for flights and this aircraft may be able to have a bit of a rest, the tally is now up to four southeast Asian flights significantly delayed from one incident on Sunday affecting one QF aircraft. Some passengers this morning booked ex MNL to other Australian domestic ports will miss their timetabled connection.

Looks like pretty good service recovery to me. With QFs strong domestic network, connecting pax should be looked after pretty well - as they knew the inbound would be late when 19 left SYD, things should have been organised pretty early

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF41 delay

This morning (13 August 2013), QF 20 was 'on blocks' at the Sydney gate at 0846, 2 hours and 21 minutes late. In turn, it became QF23 to BKK as I had forecast, departing SYD 40" late at 1020 for a BKK arrival 22' behind time at 1657 local time.

Unfortunately, the return working of QF24 is now shown as departing BKK at 1928, 63 minutes late, although as I write this that is 15 minutes ago in the Thai megacity the plane has departed but the exact time has not been updated.

So the late running that commenced on Sunday 11 August from an original long delay to QF41 still has not ceased. Perhaps the substituted operating aircraft VH-EBG had been looking forward to a restful stay at SYD on Sunday and has now extracted her 'revenge' for having to make trips it did not expect to CGK, MNL and BKK by staging the equivalent of a 'sit-in' at BKK! Arrival at SYD on Wednesday 14 August is now predicted by QF to be at 0720, 35 minutes late.

 

[JessicaTam]

Re: QF41 delay

If an aircraft was due to have a service/scheduled mainenance, how much leeway does an operator have to take it over hours before the service?

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: QF41 delay

QF24 arrived SYD this morning at 0721, 36 minutes late. It then did not form any other international flight that I could see today.

This brought the total number of southeast Asian flights delayed from Sunday's incident to six: returns from SYD to CGK, MNL and BKK. At a conservative load figure average of 70 per cent, about 1100 passengers were delayed, although the return flights to the first two destinations were worst affected.

It shows how much slackness there is in QF's flight rosters that in under three days, QF can 'recover' about eight hours of delays. Of course, SYD airport's 2300 - 0600 + 1 curfew with only limited arrivals possible between 0500 and 0600 restricts an airline's options, but QF shareholders must look at some of the aircraft rosters and question whether operations are as effcient as they could be. The other question as to whether there would be sufficient demand at variable flight times for extra flights arises. This is a similar question to the thread about the 'demise of QF International', where fellow TAFFers have pointed out that QF's A380 rosters could be much more efficient than is presently the case if QF chose, albeit at the possible cost of loss of some corporate flyers' revenue given that the latter like late night departures from LHR and LAX not midday ones.

 

[lc_461]

Re: QF41 delay

It shows how much slackness there is in QF's flight rosters that in under three days, QF can 'recover' about eight hours of delays. Of course, SYD airport's 2300 - 0600 + 1 curfew with only limited arrivals possible between 0500 and 0600 restricts an airline's options, but QF shareholders must look at some of the aircraft rosters and question whether operations are as effcient as they could be. The other question as to whether there would be sufficient demand at variable flight times for extra flights arises. This is a similar question to the thread about the 'demise of QF International', where fellow TAFFers have pointed out that QF's A380 rosters could be much more efficient than is presently the case if QF chose, albeit at the possible cost of loss of some corporate flyers' revenue given that the latter like late night departures from LHR and LAX not midday ones.

Seems to me that it is quite an efficient A330 operation if it takes so long to recoup the delay. Taking 3 days to recover 8 hours shows that no international 330s are sitting around anywhere on the network for a long period of time...

 

[straitman]

Re: QF41 delay

If an aircraft was due to have a service/scheduled mainenance, how much leeway does an operator have to take it over hours before the service?

That varies a lot depending upon what the maintenance is required for. It is never a huge amount and can often be zero.