Qantas Fleet Grounded 29/10

[DC3]

...

What the politicians are saying is also irrelevant.

This all comes down to a stoush (similar to the previous waterfront one), orchestrated by Mr (evil) Clifford, to break the unions in Australia. Mr Joyce is just a hapless pawn in this game and that's why he got his 75% pay rise. He'll (try to) do the dirty work and then he'll be shown the door by Mr Clifford.

Unfortunately in this whole process, our national treasure Qantas, will be trashed.

How many Europeans do you think will now be likely to book Qantas?

Yes, all very unfortunate. Although I think that the gloss has really gone off Qantas since the Jetstarisation process began.

 

[clifford]

Re: Once bitten twice shy

And also let’s consider the ALP government.

I guess you don't have to be Einstein to figure out where your affiliations lie.

Maybe just stick to the topic.

 

[thewinchester]

If we're talking about Steve Purvinas then...<snip>

Speaking of Purvinas, time for some more humour - and it seems that a parody account for the rabid unionist (@Steve_ALAEA) popped up overnight. Here's a sample of some of the best:

Good morning everyone, how did you sleep? We had a great night, pillow fights aboard the A380 & Dom Champagne. Pro Hart's cleaner is proud.

To a parordy account for Nancy Bird Walton, the A380 who's exploding engines caused trouble this time last year:

@Qantas_VH_OQA Surprised you're not stealing money for the UNICEF Change for Good fund to pay for your repairs.

To another parody account, Alan Joyce (covered earlier), when fishing for a job with Tiger Airways (who actually replied to that, seriously):

.@tigerairways come on, @AlanJoyceCEO can't be any worse than Crawford Rix. And Alan has the luck of the irish on his side. #goodriddance

.@Annielaural Hey, give us credit. We were stranding passengers long before @AlanJoyceCEO decided to.

Check the plumbing afterwards, make sure to double flush RT@TheSexyFactHunt: When I **** now I say I'm having an #AlanJoyce. #qantas

In response to this tweet: Time to go... Alan Joyce. I'm guessing Qantas will try for a more 'local' CEO this time... Dick Smith... perhaps?

.@__AF Please, Dick Smith was the one who gave us a regulatory environ which allowed the Tiger mess. #nomoredick

To the guys running Changi Airport, Steve asks;

Hey @FansofChangi, there's a Qantas A380 parked up (@Qantas_VH_OQA) who could use a bath and a hug. Can you help this sad & lonely plane?

And even the Red Roo has a parody account;

.@QantasKangaroo We would love to see a deathmatch between@v_borghetti_ceo and @AlanJoyceCEO. Just don't make the PM a ring girl. *shudder*

And are you surprised there was a John Borghetti parody doing the rounds. Me neither;

.@V_Borghetti_CEO you know @alanjoyceceo only got that bonus after putting the choir to work in the Catering unit.

Taking the mickey out of the unionists;

.@mjcache Isn't Rant Services the new name @AlanJoyceCEOhas for the unit employing all his ground staff. #apronhumour

.@VaneKidrauhl come on, you have to give us grubby unionists some credit for the grounding. He wouldn't have had the reason to without us.

Some fun with the Perth Mint to ask them about some gold:

Hey @perthmint Can I win the #1TonneGoldCoin? We could use it to pay our engineers while @AlanJoyceCEO gets his act together.

Poor lonely OQA with a new acronym for the airline;

And we have the tools to do it. Need an industrial vice? RT@Qantas_VH_OQA: "QANTAS: Quash Alan's Nasty testicl_s - And SOON!" #qantas

 

[clifford]

Re: We had to do SOMETHING! QANTAS

"We were dying a slow death. We had to do something drastic," Joyce told Sky News on Sunday.

ahah! a stunt! This'll show'em!

Perhaps Mr Joyce should go back to the Republic of Ireland and show the Government there how to extract itself from the Euro meltdown in that country (ie the PIIGS scenario).

I'm sure he'd be extraordinarily successful...

 

[thewinchester]

While its been at the cost of considerable temporary inconvenience to many people Qantas has had a big win here in getting a termination order and in the long run should put the airline in a much healthier position.

Agree totally. They would have done opportunity/cost maths before pulling the trigger this (aka risk vs. reward).

I doubt they would have done it if the opportunity wasn't great enough to justify the cost of the action, and conversely the cost of not taking the action.

Two quick questions
We had our LAX to JFK leg cancellede while enroute to LAX on qf107.

we eventually got on an AA flight to Toronto, fortunately for us.

What happens re a refund for our cancelled lax to JFK leg? And what about our JFK to Toronto leg?

And points? I currently have the full qf107 points posted, what about our AA lax to toront flight? Should I claim in?

Points issue first: I am being told by several QFF members that they are being told to apply for Original Routing Credits, despite the fact they're completing their leg on another carrier.

Standard process for this is to make a claim via the QFF contact us for, or by email if you have that address.

As to the refund: If you paid for the AA sectors, you should be able to claim for the cost of the sectors not flown on the original QF ticket, as well as the difference (if any) between the two if you paid a higher price than the refund.

This claim is best filed via the links on the QF disruptions page.

 

[medhead]

Points issue first: I am being told by several QFF members that they are being told to apply for Original Routing Credits, despite the fact they're completing their leg on another carrier.

Standard process for this is to make a claim via the QFF contact us for, or by email if you have that address.

Even if they refund the cancelled flight and fly elsewhere? I could understand ORC if rebooked onto an alternative by qantas.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

 

[simongr]

Ok so if you read the thread you will see people claiming that he told/encouraged/demanded people to not buy qantas flights. What you have quoted does not match those claims. It is not an overt explicit demand for people to not fly with qantas. Sorry if you can't realise that.

By way for example. If I said "if I was you I'd torch your house". Is that a demand that you torch your house? No! It is simply very poor advice.

Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

I have never said that Purvinas was demanding people fly other airlines - he has advocating flying other airlines. I think you would be at pains to dispute that - he DID advise people to fly other airlines. If I say to people "I think you should buy [insert product from competitor]" it doesn't force people to buy from a competitor but it certainly communicates who I think you should buy from.

Also your point re my views on strikes was completely valid and I am rethinking my thoughts on that - thank you. I don't want to glibly side step so might repost on that topic when I have mused on it.

I posted in this thread earlier and my response was something along the lines that Joyce and the Qantas board could have minimised the impact upon their customers by giving some notice, and I was giving an example of midnight that day the announcements were made. At least those at the airport, about to board, on the plane, on the tarmac or even preparing to head to the airport could have been able to "fly" that day rather than being stranded.

They DID give notice - they advised that the lock out would commence on Monday but to ensure safety they couldn't afford to give notice and keep flying. I think this is a combination of cynical action and true fears about safety. I don't think any engineer or pilot would actively risk pax but there is a risk of distraction - many engineers are probably genuinely afraid for their jobs and their is a risk that they might have been distracted. They could have announced it after the last flight took off on Saturday but that would have been too late for many any way.

 

[TonyHancock]

There seems to be a pervading view here that Fair Work Australia, if negotiations break down and they are forced to arbitrate, could not possibly cede to the unions requests of job security. I sincerely hope logic would prevail, but I am not as certain. Having wasted five hours of my life before one of the commissioners answering a multitude of questions on the EBA for my business I have a little experience of the logic, or lack thereof, at FWA.

If Qantas deal with their employees as they do with customers I would be feeling uncertain about my future if I worked there. Spin and marketing bollocks are no substitute for honesty, even if things look bad. The unions aren't any better either. We need a clear out at the top in both. It's the incompetent taking on the ridiculous.

Neither side cares about customers, and both appear to be playing a game to rules from the 1970's. I'll be more inclined to book flights with QF when Joyce, Purvinas, Clifford and Sheldon are not involved.

 

[thewinchester]

Even if they refund the cancelled flight and fly elsewhere? I could understand ORC if rebooked onto an alternative by qantas.

My specific understanding is Yes. I have been keeping in touch with two friends whom are tiered QFF members, both of whom have cancelled part of a ticket and self-booked on another carrier.

Both of these fliers were given advice by Reservations whilst cancelling their flights by phone that they should file an original routing credit claim once they return home.

I suspect that, but have no way of confirming, they are offering ORC to customers as additional consideration for the inconvenience caused.

 

[Princess Fiona]

They DID give notice - they advised that the lock out would commence on Monday but to ensure safety they couldn't afford to give notice and keep flying. I think this is a combination of cynical action and true fears about safety. I don't think any engineer or pilot would actively risk pax but there is a risk of distraction - many engineers are probably genuinely afraid for their jobs and their is a risk that they might have been distracted. They could have announced it after the last flight took off on Saturday but that would have been too late for many any way.

My 2 cents here, sharp intake of breath prepares to get flamed :
I think QF grounded the airline prior to the lockout as they also had a real fear that CASA would do so if they didn't ground it themselves. Headlines around the world could have been "Watchdog grounds strike torn Qantas due to Safety Concerns"
I think this would have been much worse for QF than their own decision to ground it.
Risky? Yes, but I think it has paid off so far.

 

[amaroo]

He implied it, he didn't explicitly say it.

Very true they'll have to accept what they get. But this helps the union just as much as it does qantas. Qantas has been just as obstructionist as the unions. 21 days from now both sides will be told. Based on the union reaction today, I'd guess they have a fair bit to put into the arbitration process as well. Maybe you see the unions as a great Satan, but if we look at their limited industrial action. I'd guess their view was the negotiations were at a dead end and they wanted a resolution like this just as much as qantas. Their problem was they didn't want they actions to force the issue. And it hasn't. Management dropped the bomb on this one. Overall it is an extremely interesting situation and I think the next 3 weeks will be just as interesting as the last 9 months. I can't wait to see how this ends up and at least I can keep flying.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

I tend to agree - but beg to differ.

Overwhelming unions have and will continue to have a very constructive & positive influence that adds so very much to the Australian community - reaching well beyond just workers rights.

However, when unions cross the line & want to meddle in the management of a business imposing restrictive & inhibitive practices they cease contributing & start destroying.

Their objective was lost when they lost control of the negotiation - simple 101 tactics & they need to review, change & evolve.

 

[dk4]

I think QF grounded the airline prior to the lockout as they ...

I think that it was so they could cross the i's and dot the t’s in case of a suspension order, rather than a termination finding.

That way, if a temporary suspension of industrial action was ordered against both management and union protected activities, management would have refused to comply by insisting that the airline remained grounded for “safety reasons” (cry wolfish Qantas-catch-call) even though the “lock-out action” would have been effectively cancelled by a FWA suspension ruling.

Which would have then forced the government to override FWA, and issue their own termination to get the planes back in the air!

 

[medhead]

My specific understanding is Yes. I have been keeping in touch with two friends whom are tiered QFF members, both of whom have cancelled part of a ticket and self-booked on another carrier.

Both of these fliers were given advice by Reservations whilst cancelling their flights by phone that they should file an original routing credit claim once they return home.

I suspect that, but have no way of confirming, they are offering ORC to customers as additional consideration for the inconvenience caused.

Thanks!!!

I have never said that Purvinas was demanding people fly other airlines - he has advocating flying other airlines. I think you would be at pains to dispute that - he DID advise people to fly other airlines. If I say to people "I think you should buy [insert product from competitor]" it doesn't force people to buy from a competitor but it certainly communicates who I think you should buy from.

Also your point re my views on strikes was completely valid and I am rethinking my thoughts on that - thank you. I don't want to glibly side step so might repost on that topic when I have mused on it.

I wasn't thinking of you on the purvinas comment.

I don't think you need to rethink. I respect your opinion. I'm not even sure the lock out can be equated to worker strikes. Can one have a company strike? So I was probably being glib when I mentioned it.

I tend to agree - but beg to differ.

Overwhelming unions have and will continue to have a very constructive & positive influence that adds so very much to the Australian community - reaching well beyond just workers rights.

However, when unions cross the line & want to meddle in the management of a business imposing restrictive & inhibitive practices they cease contributing & start destroying.

Their objective was lost when they lost control of the negotiation - simple 101 tactics & they need to review, change & evolve.

I'm definitely not saying the comments by the unions about buying elsewhere were right. So I only tend to agree with myself as well.

I'm not sure the unions crossed the line in their actions. They were clearly getting nowhere with the negotiations. They conducted their action with a clear aim to financially hurt Qantas - e.g. offering off duty staff to work on overtime. A lot of the disruption was contributed to by the management response. We can argue the right and wrongs or tactics, but it seems that they succeeded with the financial hurt angle because of the action Qantas took. That has now forced this situation to a conclusion, in 21 days.

I see that sky news, and others, is/are claiming this hurts the unions, but the problem with that is it assumes that unions were only in it for the strike. I think the unions were also trying to force a resolution by taking the action so I think this is a draw with extra time to come.

 

[oz_mark]

I think that it was so they could cross the i's and dot the t’s in case of a suspension order, rather than a termination finding.

That way, if a temporary suspension of industrial action was ordered against both management and union protected activities, management would have refused to comply by insisting that the airline remained grounded for “safety reasons” (cry wolfish Qantas-catch-call) even though the “lock-out action” would have been effectively cancelled by a FWA suspension ruling.

Which would have then forced the government to override FWA, and issue their own termination to get the planes back in the air!

If there was a suspension, Qantas could simply have dragged it out by providing a safety plan that CASA would not approve

(Noting that CASA had already written to Qantas on 14Oct re safety concerns from the industrial action)

 

[amaroo]

I'm definitely not saying the comments by the unions about buying elsewhere were right. So I only tend to agree with myself as well.

I'm not sure the unions crossed the line in their actions. They were clearly getting nowhere with the negotiations. They conducted their action with a clear aim to financially hurt Qantas - e.g. offering off duty staff to work on overtime. A lot of the disruption was contributed to by the management response. We can argue the right and wrongs or tactics, but it seems that they succeeded with the financial hurt angle because of the action Qantas took. That has now forced this situation to a conclusion, in 21 days.

I see that sky news, and others, is/are claiming this hurts the unions, but the problem with that is it assumes that unions were only in it for the strike. I think the unions were also trying to force a resolution by taking the action so I think this is a draw with extra time to come.

I think Q's action had very little to do with the daily rantings of 3 unions - it's clear the union was losing the argument in the court of public opinion.....Q's, had strikes before & I'm sure they'll have strikes in the future.

IMO, there action was aimed at receiving protection for the next agreement period thus, providing ample time to implement all the plans they want too.

Whatever, is impose on them via FWA, will be insignificant, unrestrictive & probably less than what they would have agreed too in the normal process.

 

[browski]

If we're talking about Steve Purvinas then this is what he is quoted as saying by smh:

ALAEA federal secretary Steve Purvinas said the union planned to re-schedule the four-hour stoppage on Friday.
"I would think that by October the 28th when the Qantas AGM takes place you're likely to see full-day stoppages," Mr Purvinas told reporters in Melbourne.
"If I was a person considering travel over the period up until Christmas I'd probably be looking at airlines other than Qantas.
"If I was a passenger I wouldn't be purchasing a ticket with them at this stage."

Don't buy Qantas tickets: union

Those comments were enough to destroy any sympathy I might have had for the unions. The short-sighted greedy stupidity of it was breathtaking.

Oh for goodness sake. How many time do we have to go through this? It was not stupid is was prescient. It was not unAustralian it was a natural conclusion. You yourself Stephen would have advised all your family and friends exactly the same thing. Just let it go.............just let it go.

 

[dk4]

If there was a suspension, Qantas could simply have dragged it out by providing a safety plan that CASA would not approve

So the best courses of action continues to be, IMO, for the government to call Qantas’ bluff, and allow Qantas to fail; if Qantas workers and management are unable to unite themselves.

The ALP is too concerned with protecting union members’ current jobs at Qantas, even if acknowledging their ultimate transition to lower conditions.

When a vast number of jobs at QFi are, quite frankly, already redundant in all but name.

QFi is a dead man walking.

The Qantas Board has effectively signalled that the future for Qantas brand/coded international services is as joint ventures with off shore gateway partners (or in the case of Jetconnect, a wholly owned operation, and in the case of Jetstar both).

As for domestic jobs, these will transition to lower conditions, but it’s not necessarily in the national interest that these stay with Qantas.

IMO growing existing players like Rex, Skywest, Alliance, Air Australia… would ensure a more competitive environment where no single airline business controls a two third market share, which in my continued opinion, is the most serious challenge to future national interest, as demonstrated by the events over the last few days. Additionally, international entrants could be encouraged to bring in their brands through locally registered operations, in the same way that Tiger has, as the market would be a lot more appealing without Qantas.

The return on investment that the airline industry provides Australian investors is so minimal, that domestic funds would be far better invested in other projects of national importance, rather than aviation and Qantas in particular.


But unfortunately the ALP government has already played its hand, in the exact way the Qantas board had facilitated. :shock:

 

[Moody]

Union action to prevent offshoring and outsourcing of jobs traditionally performed in Australia was definitely costing Qantas money and causing minor irritation to the public. The response from Qantas was to cost the country much, much more (hard to put a figure on the long-term damage), and really screw with their passengers without any warning.

If a union was to engage in secondary industrial action, they would be nailed to the wall. All political parties condemn such acts. But Qantas is able to throw the baby out with the bathwater and some people see this as a sign of strong leadership? What if a teacher said "I can't deal with these unruly 3 students so I'm closing the school down"?

So now we have 3 weeks to negotiate an agreement between parties that have been in opposition for 3 years. Fat chance of that. So when FWA steps in again what are their parameters? Can the make binding arbitrations? If Qantas wants to outsource international operations leg by leg (ala Jetconnect) can the government stop them? And the big question is - does anyone here care? (By "here" I mean Australia, not the unrepresentitive swill on this board).

 

[JohnK]

There were winners to come out of this dispute? Good to see some one won as the tens of thousands left stranded lost badly.

Oh and lets get something straight. Neither party gives a damn about the passengers that keep them in a job....

 

[The Rok]

My 2 cents here, sharp intake of breath prepares to get flamed :
I think QF grounded the airline prior to the lockout as they also had a real fear that CASA would do so if they didn't ground it themselves. Headlines around the world could have been "Watchdog grounds strike torn Qantas due to Safety Concerns"
I think this would have been much worse for QF than their own decision to ground it.
Risky? Yes, but I think it has paid off so far.

Agreed. I think Qantas have played a very very very smart and well thought out plan.