Qantas Fleet Grounded 29/10

[Moody]

Agreed. I think Qantas have played a very very very smart and well thought out plan.

Presumably they assessed that burning bridges with the Australian government and many previously loyal customers would be worth it. Time will tell how cunning that plan was, but they have certainly trumped the unions in the dishonesty stakes.

 

[Moopere]

but they have certainly trumped the unions in the dishonesty stakes.

???

dishonest? How?

 

[muppet]

Those who criticise the management decision to ground the airline obviously should question their own management ability. This was the only option available to them.​

Oh please. This is the management equvilent of stamping your foot, putting your fingers in your ears and sing 'la la la' until the problem goes away.

True, it worked for AJ, but his strategy was to make it someone else's problem - not solve the problem.

 

[muppet]

Oh for goodness sake. How many time do we have to go through this? It was not stupid is was prescient. It was not unAustralian it was a natural conclusion. You yourself Stephen would have advised all your family and friends exactly the same thing. Just let it go.............just let it go.

Given what just happened.... it was pretty good advice I think.

*cheeky face*

 

[drron]

Just to reiterate-the lockout is legal under the Fair Work Act.Julia was the minister responsible for bringing in the act.
I have mentioned before that agreement had been reached on pay etc with the TWU and the only sticking point was the TWU insisting it should be for all workers including those supplied by labour hire companies-ie JQ.This is however not able to be forced by FWA as those are employed by a different company-ie QF will get what they want.
Similiarly for the pilots-FWA will not be able to enforce a contract giving the same rates of pay for JQ pilots.
There is no way the FWA can award such things as a second A380 hangar as insisted on by the engineers.
So QF will get virtually what they want if there is no negotiated settlement-and that would mean very bad publicity for the Unions.The government would not like that.

 

[Maca44]

Just to reiterate-the lockout is legal under the Fair Work Act.Julia was the minister responsible for bringing in the act.
I have mentioned before that agreement had been reached on pay etc with the TWU and the only sticking point was the TWU insisting it should be for all workers including those supplied by labour hire companies-ie JQ.This is however not able to be forced by FWA as those are employed by a different company-ie QF will get what they want.
Similiarly for the pilots-FWA will not be able to enforce a contract giving the same rates of pay for JQ pilots.
There is no way the FWA can award such things as a second A380 hangar as insisted on by the engineers.
So QF will get virtually what they want if there is no negotiated settlement-and that would mean very bad publicity for the Unions.The government would not like that.

I think you are correct.

 

[pauly7]

Presumably they assessed that burning bridges with the Australian government and many previously loyal customers would be worth it. Time will tell how cunning that plan was, but they have certainly trumped the unions in the dishonesty stakes.

They haven't. The government is just posturing. Pretty clear - and they don't have any other option given they are being smacked around for their role so far as well. Poor Jules.

A lot of corporate customers completely supported QF in it's action. Mine included. The rest of the customer base (whatever the % who blame QF not the unions) will forgive... And if not forgive they will absolutely forget. They always do.

People can barely remember when Virgin stranded tens of thousands of passengers because of their shoddy booking system!! That was only a few months ago.

If they get through this next phase with minimal rubbish from SP&co then they will be fine.

 

[ric_melb]

And if I remember rightly, when Virgin's booking system went down, they didn't give anyone prior notice!

 

[medhead]

And if I remember rightly, when Virgin's booking system went down, they didn't give anyone prior notice!

Possibly because that was outside their control. Unlike qantas. :?:


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

 

[dfcatch]

Look guys - as I've said before, you all know I'm no AJ fan, and you're welcome to criticize QF management on their operation and direction of the airline.

You are also able to have pro-union views if you wish.

But on this one - AJ outplayed the unions; the government got caught with their pants down and are playing catchup now trying to claim credit; and Pauly is right - QF will recover.

Mark my words, lock the thread for 21 days......and if I'm wrong, I'll eat humble pie.

 

[medhead]

But on this one - AJ outplayed the unions; the government got caught with their pants down and are playing catchup now trying to claim credit; and Pauly is right

Sorry but this is not about pro or anti anyone. Given that the unions have accused qantas of not negotiating, their reason for going on strike, I suggest this benefits the unions just as much as qantas. They also want a forced negotiation. So it is hard to see Joyce has outplayed them, it is a nil all draw with extra time to follow.

As for the government, you and pauly are wrong to suggest there is any role for the government in how a company is run. This is not communist china! This is not a nanny state. Businesses are responsible for their own affairs. FWA, and seemingly everyone here, agree that the union action wasn't above a huddle requiring government intervention. So the government only had a need to get involved once Joyce dropped the H-bomb.

Joyce/qantas could have asked for a termination at any stage. They know their business, the government doesn't. So far from playing catch up the government is playing their part to sort out the mess created by this dispute, by both sides, in the best interests of the country (not just qantas) and in the way that gives the most legal certainty.

Edit: the pilots were wearing red ties - government intervention!!!! Please.

Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

 

[dfcatch]

Sorry but this is not about pro or anti anyone. Given that the unions have accused qantas of not negotiating, their reason for going on strike, I suggest this benefits the unions just as much as qantas. They also want a forced negotiation. So it is hard to see Joyce has outplayed them, it is a nil all draw with extra time to follow.

As for the government, you and pauly are wrong to suggest there is any role for the government in how a company is run. This is not communist china! This is not a nanny state. Businesses are responsible for their own affairs. FWA, and seemingly everyone here, agree that the union action wasn't above a huddle requiring government intervention. So the government only had a need to get involved once Joyce dropped the H-bomb.

Joyce/qantas could have asked for a termination at any stage. They know their business, the government doesn't. So far from playing catch up the government is playing their part to sort out the mess created by this dispute, by both sides, in the best interests of the country (not just qantas) and in the way that gives the most legal certainty.

Edit: the pilots were wearing red ties - government intervention!!!! Please.

Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

Medhead - you make me smile

Time will tell my friend.......

But I will say that I laughed my head off listening to Sheldon's rhetoric yesterday when he was still trying to talk tough.... Even the journos slapped him down. My favorite was "you can talk all you want.... But you're now banned from industrial action".

Like all union hacks - no tact, no diplomacy, just the ladder to climb for personal ambition

 

[medhead]

Medhead - you make me smile

Time will tell my friend.......

But I will say that I laughed my head off listening to Sheldon's rhetoric yesterday when he was still trying to talk tough.... Even the journos slapped him down. My favorite was "you can talk all you want.... But you're now banned from industrial action".

Like all union hacks - no tact, no diplomacy, just the ladder to climb for personal ambition

I find the rhetoric by both sides to be laughable. Well except the pilots, as they seem reasonable enough. All I can see on TV is a bunch of toddlers holding a urination competition. Both sides have hurt the public, hence neither has won morally or otherwise, and they will, hopefully, now be forced into a resolution. That's all that matters to me as I'm sick to death of the bovine excrement.*



Did I mention that cracks me up? My new favourite phrase.


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[dfcatch]

I like it

 

[eastwest101]

Sorry but this is not about pro or anti anyone. Given that the unions have accused qantas of not negotiating, their reason for going on strike, I suggest this benefits the unions just as much as qantas. They also want a forced negotiation. So it is hard to see Joyce has outplayed them, it is a nil all draw with extra time to follow.

SNIP... So the government only had a need to get involved once Joyce dropped the H-bomb.

Joyce/qantas could have asked for a termination at any stage. They know their business, the government doesn't. So far from playing catch up the government is playing their part to sort out the mess created by this dispute, by both sides, in the best interests of the country (not just qantas) and in the way that gives the most legal certainty.....

I tend to agree with a lot of medhead's comments - but only a few people have asked or are talking about exactly how much information about the previous unions and managements positions will be aired during the 21 day negotioation period, and if it goes to the FWA arbitration stage after that - how much detail and how relevant is this detail to the final arbitration decision?

I guess what I am trying to find out is how much dirty laundry from both sides will be aired? And will it be relevant to a FWA arbitration?

 

[amaroo]

Sorry but this is not about pro or anti anyone. Given that the unions have accused qantas of not negotiating, their reason for going on strike, I suggest this benefits the unions just as much as qantas. They also want a forced negotiation. So it is hard to see Joyce has outplayed them, it is a nil all draw with extra time to follow.

Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

Can't see FWA ordering Q to amend their pay scale for any other business they own or don't own......i.e. J*, Jet connect, etc or external contractors........which is what the unions wanted. Oh, don't forget they wanted them to build another A380 hanger, free membership to QP, access to F lounges, guaranteed free/cheap seats for family members.......and, the list goes on.

They'll get a pay rise out of FWA and that's about it. Exactly what Q had already agreed to do.

 

[medhead]

I tend to agree with a lot of medhead's comments - but only a few people have asked or are talking about exactly how much information about the previous unions and managements positions will be aired during the 21 day negotioation period, and if it goes to the FWA arbitration stage after that - how much detail and how relevant is this detail to the final arbitration decision?

I guess what I am trying to find out is how much dirty laundry from both sides will be aired? And will it be relevant to a FWA arbitration?

Personally I don't think we will or should see any dirty laundry. Besides wild statements from one side or the other there is very little actually information on the actual claims and counter claims publicly available. Which is why I am frustrated by the trial by media and also rant against those taking sides. Unfortunately I tend to take the other side in those rants. But the main lesson of that is to highlight the pointlessness of taking either side.

Can't see FWA ordering Q to amend their pay scale for any other business they own or don't own......i.e. J*, Jet connect, etc or external contractors........which is what the unions wanted. Oh, don't forget they wanted them to build another A380 hanger, free membership to QP, access to F lounges, guaranteed free/cheap seats for family members.......and, the list goes on.

Ok case in point, you've pretty much listed the companies version of what the unions have claimed. The company version of the claims needs to be viewed in that context. For example, Hearing the pilot association guy over the weekend I don't accept that the job security claim is for every single pilot in the Group to earn exactly the same. There can be limits and exceptions but management have never bothered to propose something different. There are the 2 sides on that point. I don't know what is true. Good luck to you, if you do.




Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

 

[drron]

Sorry but this is not about pro or anti anyone. Given that the unions have accused qantas of not negotiating, their reason for going on strike, I suggest this benefits the unions just as much as qantas. They also want a forced negotiation. So it is hard to see Joyce has outplayed them, it is a nil all draw with extra time to follow.

As for the government, you and pauly are wrong to suggest there is any role for the government in how a company is run. This is not communist china! This is not a nanny state. Businesses are responsible for their own affairs. FWA, and seemingly everyone here, agree that the union action wasn't above a huddle requiring government intervention. So the government only had a need to get involved once Joyce dropped the H-bomb.

Joyce/qantas could have asked for a termination at any stage. They know their business, the government doesn't. So far from playing catch up the government is playing their part to sort out the mess created by this dispute, by both sides, in the best interests of the country (not just qantas) and in the way that gives the most legal certainty.

Edit: the pilots were wearing red ties - government intervention!!!! Please.

Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

But my friend cabinet as usual is leaking like a sieve.At least 2 senior cabinet ministers wanted the Government to issue a termination order immediately they had been informed of the shutdown by AJ on Saturday.Same effect as the FWA order but without the 2 day shutdown.
Again if AJ had asked for a determination prior to the shutdown he would not have got it.The FWA make that clear in their written judgement.

 

[medhead]

But my friend cabinet as usual is leaking like a sieve.At least 2 senior cabinet ministers wanted the Government to issue a termination order immediately they had been informed of the shutdown by AJ on Saturday.Same effect as the FWA order but without the 2 day shutdown.
Again if AJ had asked for a determination prior to the shutdown he would not have got it.The FWA make that clear in their written judgement.

Well those would be the communists in cabinet who believe the government should be running private companies. Sorry I'm really surprised that any Liberal or capitalist can seriously suggest governments have a place in telling them how to run their business.

Actually the FWA determination said their was no case for an intervention before Saturday. There was nothing to stop qantas going to FWA and presenting the case for the lock out and grounding and ask for a termination because qantas would have to take those actions without a termination order. It is called new information about qantas' business that only qantas knows until they take the action. Anyway I've already made this point.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

 

[Rebekkap]

But my friend cabinet as usual is leaking like a sieve.At least 2 senior cabinet ministers wanted the Government to issue a termination order immediately they had been informed of the shutdown by AJ on Saturday.

Reports claiming this in the papers this morning didn't quote any cabinet ministers - looked to me like the story came straight from the opposition.