Qantas Fleet

[maninblack]

I suspect maninblack is referring to the way that Australian Airlines was sold fairly cheaply to Qantas, and QF was then given a $1.3b capital top-up by the Government in preparation for its privatisation.

Indeed. Australian was virtually given away for $400M and Qantas generated huge profits until 2009 averaging almost $1b Profit before tax per year from 2001 until 2008. Life was sweet :!:

 

[ajw373]

Dream setup....
When the ATO gives a 20-year useful life for aircraft - needed for depreciation deductions....
whereas some other countries use 8.

There is a reason why they have moved to leasing for most recent purchases.

20 years actually seems quite a reasonable amount of time, afterall depreciation is meant to reflect the time the asset takes to reach more or less $0 value. 8 years way too fast.

As for recent purchases being leased, you do realise that most of the 'leased' a/c are leased from shelf companies owned by Qantas? Yes it is done for financial reasons, but doubt it is to do with depreciation as clearly the leasing company, is still actually Qantas. I suspect it is more to do with the way they are financed and the way the various business units 'pay' each other.

 

[docjames]

The problem is the airframe would have a 20yr depreciation, but the interior components would be 5yrs.

I'm guess its 20 for the whole lot whereas competing carriers (SQ is the one usually pointed at) have iirc a 7yr schedule (on the airframe).

 

[ajw373]

The problem is the airframe would have a 20yr depreciation, but the interior components would be 5yrs.

I'm guess its 20 for the whole lot whereas competing carriers (SQ is the one usually pointed at) have iirc a 7yr schedule (on the airframe).

Ironically at last Qantas meeting it was annouced tha average fleet age of the Qantas group will be less than SIA. Will hunt up the release.

 

[CaviAck]

Ironically at last Qantas meeting it was annouced tha average fleet age of the Qantas group will be less than SIA. Will hunt up the release.

Take out JQ's fleet and I doubt that will be the case. Considering SQ's average fleet age as of 1 October is 6 years 8 months. QF mainline alone (excluding QFLink and Jetconnect) is 9.7 years.

 

[anat0l]

Ironically at last Qantas meeting it was annouced tha average fleet age of the Qantas group will be less than SIA. Will hunt up the release.

Probably true until Singapore Airlines take in their next shipment. That's gotta be coming around pretty fast.

 

[markis10]

Probably true until Singapore Airlines take in their next shipment. That's gotta be coming around pretty fast.

Key being group, a word used when the news is meant to have a positive spin:

QF
Fleet age 9.7 years

JQFleet age 5.3 years

Sunstate

Fleet age 4.5 years

Eastern



Fleet age 11.8 years

 

[docjames]

Key being group, a word used when the news is meant to have a positive spin:

The "enhanced" fleet age......

 

[ajw373]

Key being group, a word used when the news is meant to have a positive spin:

QF
Fleet age 9.7 years

JQFleet age 5.3 years

Sunstate

Fleet age 4.5 years

Eastern



Fleet age 11.8 years

True the word group does bring it down. Though the figures above are not bad as averages, especially for an airline like Qantas that supposedly has such an 'old' fleet.

The following is from the following website. http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Qantas.htm

Aircraft Number Age Rank for the age by aircraft type
Airbus A330 20 6.6 years On 106 airlines operating this type of aircraft Qantas ranks 49
Airbus A380 12 4.2 years On 12 airlines operating this type of aircraft Qantas ranks 9
Boeing 737 4 20.6 years On 264 airlines operating this type of aircraft Qantas ranks 81
Boeing 737 Next Gen 60 6.6 years On 190 airlines operating this type of aircraft Qantas ranks 65
Boeing 747 15 16.2 years On 94 airlines operating this type of aircraft Qantas ranks 28
Boeing 767 19 18.8 years On 100 airlines operating this type of aircraft Qantas ranks 55

and the same for SIA

Aircraft Number Age Rank for the age by aircraft type
Airbus A330 24 3.2 years On 106 airlines operating this type of aircraft Singapore Airlines ranks 19
Airbus A340 5 10.2 years On 49 airlines operating this type of aircraft Singapore Airlines ranks 10
Airbus A380 19 4.3 years On 12 airlines operating this type of aircraft Singapore Airlines ranks 10
Boeing 747 9 11.9 years On 94 airlines operating this type of aircraft Singapore Airlines ranks 13
Boeing 777 57 9 years On 65 airlines operating this type of aircraft Singapore Airlines ranks 39

 

[maninblack]

True the word group does bring it down. Though the figures above are not bad as averages, especially for an airline like Qantas that supposedly has such an 'old' fleet.

and the same for SIA

Aircraft Number Age Rank for the age by aircraft type
Airbus A330 24 3.2 years On 106 airlines operating this type of aircraft Singapore Airlines ranks 19
Airbus A340 5 10.2 years On 49 airlines operating this type of aircraft Singapore Airlines ranks 10
Airbus A380 19 4.3 years On 12 airlines operating this type of aircraft Singapore Airlines ranks 10
Boeing 747 9 11.9 years On 94 airlines operating this type of aircraft Singapore Airlines ranks 13
Boeing 777 57 9 years On 65 airlines operating this type of aircraft Singapore Airlines ranks 39

SIA has not operated any 747's since April 2012 except as dedicated frieghters.

 

[CaviAck]

SIA has not operated any 747's since April 2012 except as dedicated frieghters.

Wait, SQ have stopped using 747s? I loved the sight of a SQ 747! I guess that was inevitable with the A380.

Also currently compiling a QF fleet spreadsheet. How many B717s did QF buy from Click Mexicana to have J cabins? I know QF has one of them as VH-NXJ flying an all Y config, which they're leasing from boeing corp sine mid last year. Just wondering what's happening with the new ones.

 

[CaviAck]

Ok so I ended up making a spreadsheet about QF's fleet.

QF (including QFLink, Cobham, Eastern, Sunstate, Jetconnect, but excluding JQ) has an average fleet age of 9.09 years. Considering QF's fleet is almost double SQ's 105 at 205 according to my count, that's pretty damn good. (Take out the 717s and DHC8s and that average age goes up to 9.26 over 135 aircrafts which isn't so good compared to SQ...)

This is taking into account the latest:

• A330 delivered is VH-EBV delivered over a year ago
• A380 delivered is VH-OQL
• B737 delivered is VH-XZI a month ago
• B717 includes the 5 coming from Click Mexicana (VH-YQS-YQW)
• DHC-8 delivered is VH-LQM

The following 744s, 763s and 734s are included, as I'm unsure if any of the ones listed on the QF seatmaps and QF Source include some that have already left.

• 744 - OEE-OEJ, OEB, OJA, OJC, OJI, OJL, OJM, OJS, OJT, OJU (15 in total)
• 763 - OGG-OGV, ZXE (17 in total, I understand there's only 1 more 763 to go to make 16 in total)
• 734 - TJI, TJR, TJS, TJX (4 in total)

The age might be off a little as I may have included some aircraft that have already left and may have left out some new aircraft that have been delivered or transfered over from JQ. My total stands at 205 aircraft in QF's fleet:

• 10 A332s
• 10 A330s
• 12 A380s
• 18 B717s
• 4 B734s
• 68 B738s
• 15 744s
• 17 B763s
• 5 DH8Bs
• 16 DH8Cs
• 30 DH8Ds

 

[anat0l]

Considering QF's fleet is almost double SQ's 105 at 205 according to my count, that's pretty damn good.

Is that a subjective judgement or based on some mathematics-statistical methodology (which would still be inherently assumption-laden)?

SQ has always had a very ambitious fleet replacement schedule, plus admittedly it does benefit much in this regard for having little shorthaul ops (it would depend a bit, I suppose, if you factor in SilkAir and perhaps even Scoot).

 

[CaviAck]

Is that a subjective judgement or based on some mathematics-statistical methodology (which would still be inherently assumption-laden)?

SQ has always had a very ambitious fleet replacement schedule, plus admittedly it does benefit much in this regard for having little shorthaul ops (it would depend a bit, I suppose, if you factor in SilkAir and perhaps even Scoot).

That would be a subjective judgement made by me. I just took into consideration how QF is much more short haul than SQ and all the regional flying QF does and the cost to maintain such a relatively large fleet that not only would suck money on upkeep but to replace with new aircraft.

We're not factoring in JQ's aircraft for QF so I wouldn't include Scoot's into SQ's, you could factor in Silkair, but that wouldn't affect the overall age that much considering Silkair's average is 6.7 years. Also even if you add the 6 777s that Scoot are using the average wouldn't go up that much to about 7.1 years. (can't exactly say as I can only find the ages of the 5 Scoot own and not the 6th that is dry leased from SQ, not to mention Scoot's average is going to nose dive as they accept delivery of the 787s next year)

 

[ajw373]

That would be a subjective judgement made by me. I just took into consideration how QF is much more short haul than SQ and all the regional flying QF does and the cost to maintain such a relatively large fleet that not only would suck money on upkeep but to replace with new aircraft.

I am curious how 9.09 years is good, but 9.26 when you take out QantasLink A/C isn't good. Especially noting as you mentioned a good deal of Qantas flights are short haul, read domestic.

 

[maninblack]

I am curious how 9.09 years is good, but 9.26 when you take out QantasLink A/C isn't good. Especially noting as you mentioned a good deal of Qantas flights are short haul, read domestic.

And of course a fleet being fairly young on average is a bit neither here nor there if some product is very old and some very new. If refurbs are not done a 9 year old plane can look pretty clapped out. The J class on SQ's 77W's are a good example of this, they are looking very shabby but are being refurbished. Many of QF's 738's are looking pretty tattered too, those J class seats have seen better days even though the aircraft are not technically old.

 

[CaviAck]

I am curious how 9.09 years is good, but 9.26 when you take out QantasLink A/C isn't good. Especially noting as you mentioned a good deal of Qantas flights are short haul, read domestic.

The fleet size when you take into consideration the DHC's and 717s.

The fleet size grows dramatically, it's understandable that an average age can be a higher number if there are lots of aircraft to replace or a large network requiring lots of aircraft to support (delivery slots, immediate capital expenditure, cash flow requirements, etc). If you take out the regional fleet, the fleet size isn't that big and upkeep of the aircraft shouldn't be too hard if done right, as there are less planes required to support and replace. Although I will admit that scaling on revenue and expenditure would throw these assumptions out.

On a side note the regional DHC8 and 717 fleet is 8.76 years old on average.

 

[markis10]

On a side note the regional DHC8 and 717 fleet is 8.76 years old on average.

Helped by the Dash 8s, the current active 717 fleet are hardly spring chickens:

Fleet age 12.2 years

http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Cobham Aviation.htm

 

[CaviAck]

Helped by the Dash 8s, the current active 717 fleet are hardly spring chickens:

Fleet age 12.2 years

Fleet age Cobham Aviation | Airfleets aviation

I've got the 717s at 11.40 years, airfleet hasn't taken into account 4 of the 5 birds coming in from Click Mexicana.

DHC8s coming in at 7.83 years. (Those DH8Bs aren't helping though at 17.27 years average across the 5)

 

[FxTrader]

Helped by the Dash 8s, the current active 717 fleet are hardly spring chickens:

Fleet age 12.2 years

Fleet age Cobham Aviation | Airfleets aviation

Seems there is an even older aircraft in the QF fleet.
A super connie that is still operational.
Qantas 'Connie' Super Constellation Takeoff with flames (1080p HD) - YouTube
Note the Red Roo on the Port vertical stabiliser and the exhaust flames.