Qantas Project Sunrise goes ahead, 12 new A350-1000s ordered

[justinbrett]

Given the number of people in MEL with Greek heritage, I've often wondered why QF haven't looked at this option previously; should definitely be on the list for the A350.

That would be a VFR route and those pax normally aren't prepared to pay for a premium non stop flight.

 

[ChrisMars]

Wondering how Qantas feels about Turkish airline plans. Turkey is geographically perfectly located for Australian: A ultra long haul from Australian's capital airport, followed by an extensive list of short-ish haul connection in Europe. Athens is equally well located, albeit with a smaller network. If Qantas can strike a good agreements Aegean airline even if in the wrong alliance, that could be interesting for us.

 

[jb747]

Then we are agreed. I was responding to jb747's post:

It’s promoted as non stop on the east coast. But, if you happen to be in almost any east coast location, it’s just as simple, and probably cheaper, to go to Singapore, Bangkok, Dubai, and so on. QF knobbled their London flight from Melbourne, simply to provide feed passengers for this flight, which it apparently doesn’t need. But, the damage to the Melbourne choices remains. All part of the downsizing, I guess.

Given the number of people in MEL with Greek heritage, I've often wondered why QF haven't looked at this option previously; should definitely be on the list for the A350.

I actually flew the last QF flight into Athens. It was one of those flights that was always full, but on which they couldn’t make a profit. Rather like the Bali crowd. The fact that SQ has pulled out, and Scoot is in tells me that they have the same issue.

As for Turkey… Geographically it has a lot to offer, but apparently there has never been much passenger demand at this end. If they start flying to Oz, then they’re really doing exactly the same thing as the ME brigade, though with even longer sectors, and the added chance of the European leg being in a little jet. One part puts their costs up, and the other lowers the price they can charge.

 

[HS-TQE]

MEL and/or PER-ATH may be more of a "Jetstar" route rather than a Qantas route with the reconfigured 788s. Largely Medium/High Leisure/VFR like HNL.

 

[JohnK]

Given the number of people in MEL with Greek heritage, I've often wondered why QF haven't looked at this option previously; should definitely be on the list for the A350.

Qantas used to fly to ATH. I think I flew one-way SYD-ATH in 1990 as part of a round the world.

I hear lots of people prefer to fly in/out of PER to UK as PER can be accessed direct form any major airport in Australia.

Personally I wouldn't do it unless significant discount over other routes but if I'm not mistaken it's more expensive. With choice of going via SIN/BKK, Middle East or PER then I'd choose SIN as transit.

I do not consider 17-18 hours non-stop as a viable option. Actually it's the opposite. It's one option to avoid.

 

[SYD]

Wondering how Qantas feels about Turkish airline plans. Turkey is geographically perfectly located for Australian: A ultra long haul from Australian's capital airport, followed by an extensive list of short-ish haul connection in Europe. Athens is equally well located, albeit with a smaller network. If Qantas can strike a good agreements Aegean airline even if in the wrong alliance, that could be interesting for us.

OT, but does TK only do “Euro Biz” for those connections or do they have WB aircraft on some main city routes? A few people have commented here that they wouldn’t fly via PER to Europe because the Oz dom sector is a B737. Even though, QF J would be more comfortable than classic Euro J. Flying TK ex-MEL and then on a NB would be no different. At least the ME / Asian hubs are mostly WB both sectors.

 

[jase05]

OT, but does TK only do “Euro Biz” for those connections or do they have WB aircraft on some main city routes? A few people have commented here that they wouldn’t fly via PER to Europe because the Oz dom sector is a B737. Even though, QF J would be more comfortable than classic Euro J. Flying TK ex-MEL and then on a NB would be no different. At least the ME / Asian hubs are mostly WB both sectors.

Bit of a mix from what I’ve seen.
The more “popular” ports like LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA etc seem to be widebody operated whilst the Eurobiz is on the smaller ports although they do chop and change it seems

 

[RooFlyer]

Bit of a mix from what I’ve seen.
The more “popular” ports like LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA etc seem to be widebody operated whilst the Eurobiz is on the smaller ports although they do chop and change it seems

Yes. Have been looking at IST-CDG recently and there is a mix of narrow and wide bodies on most days. But even their narrows EuroBiz is very good.

 

[dajop]

. But even their narrows EuroBiz is very good.

How many TK narrow bodies actually operate with just EuroBiz? I thought majority still have 2-2 cradle seats in business, which is much better.

 

[jase05]

How many TK narrow bodies actually operate with just EuroBiz? I thought majority still have 2-2 cradle seats in business, which is much better.

I think all of their A319’s and A320’s are Eurobiz and some of their A321’s and B738’s still are too
I’d suspect most of them probably operate domestically or to smaller nearby ports

 

[Cognac]

Yes but there’s plenty of people who will connect in SYD that don’t already have a one stop option. Eg where I live - OOL. Or CBR. Or really at town / city that’s not a major airport.

It doesn’t take away from the fact that SYD-LHR is non stop and that brings options not just to pax ex SYD.

Again, we are agreed.

 

[Cognac]

It’s promoted as non stop on the east coast. But, if you happen to be in almost any east coast location, it’s just as simple, and probably cheaper, to go to Singapore, Bangkok, Dubai, and so on. QF knobbled their London flight from Melbourne, simply to provide feed passengers for this flight, which it apparently doesn’t need. But, the damage to the Melbourne choices remains. All part of the downsizing, I guess.

I don't disagree that it's just as easy to go via Singapore or other stopover points along the way if you are departing from the east coast. But that doesn't mean PER-ATH wouldn't be non-stop. Perth to London, Perth to Rome, and Perth to Paris are all direct flights as well, so I don't see how this would be any different.

Once (if?) Sunrise gets up and running, Qantas will advertise non-stop flights from Sydney to London as well, which as @justinbrett very accurately states, is still a one-stop flight for anyone not originating from Sydney. That doesn't make the SYD-LHR any less of a non-stop flight either.

Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane to Athens, sure. That's a one-stop itinerary no matter how you look at it at the moment. But I find it weird to be arguing that Perth to Athens shouldn't be considered a non-stop flight, simply because you would have to connect to it?

Should Qantas not advertise that they have direct flights to these ports?

 

[jb747]

The point was simply that having your ‘non stop’ start from Perth is no different to the ‘non stop’ I can do from Singapore. It’s great if you live in Perth, but it most definitely is not non stop from M/S/B. And I see no reason to pay a premium for this offering.

 

[Saab34]

The point was simply that having your ‘non stop’ start from Perth is no different to the ‘non stop’ I can do from Singapore. It’s great if you live in Perth, but it most definitely is not non stop from M/S/B. And I see no reason to pay a premium for this offering.

These Perth services might be popular now, but the market does shift so they might not be sustainable in say a decade. I think these Perth flights will start to skew more VFR as we head into the 2030s.

Big changes are coming on the International front that will suck profitable traffic away from these Perth directs. We obviously have sunrise flights, Turkish will explode in capacity later this decade, Qatar wants more, Ridyah air is coming soon, certainly is alot more capacity, and much better product offerings on the horizon.

 

[RooFlyer]

Big changes are coming on the International front that will suck profitable traffic away from these Perth directs. We obviously have sunrise flights, Turkish will explode in capacity later this decade, Qatar wants more, Ridyah air is coming soon, certainly is alot more capacity, and much better product offerings on the horizon.

Yes. How much is saving about 4 hours flying time worth? $2K? $4K? $more? The newcomers will undercut to get market share and deliver pax to exactly where they want to go. I can't wait to try Riyadh Air.

 

[HS-TQE]

These Perth services might be popular now, but the market does shift so they might not be sustainable in say a decade. I think these Perth flights will start to skew more VFR as we head into the 2030s.

Big changes are coming on the International front that will suck profitable traffic away from these Perth directs. We obviously have sunrise flights, Turkish will explode in capacity later this decade, Qatar wants more, Ridyah air is coming soon, certainly is alot more capacity, and much better product offerings on the horizon.

I'd tip that LHR would probably be the only viable ULR out of PER eventually considering it's now operating as stand-alone as well as reports that most of the PER-LHR legs prior to decoupling from MEL were majority PER boardings.

However, the others from PER, e.g FCO, CDG, etc tagged from SYD might skew towards VFR if there was to be non-stops from the big 2 cities on the East Coast in the future (either from QF or AF/AZ) and may not be sustainable.

 

[RSVKanga]

Turkish will explode in capacity later this decade, Qatar wants more, Ridyah air is coming soon, certainly is alot more capacity, and much better product offerings on the horizon.

Unsure if you're talking about the PER Western Hub or Sunrise, but I think your point is increasingly leaning towards being outdated.

Apart from a very niche market, who still stops in Fiji/Hawaii/NZ when travelling from Australia to Western/Central USA, which was once the norm before technology improved? Who still flies two-stop between Australia and Europe, which was once the norm before technology improved? History suggests that the benefit of less or no stops due to an improvement in technology outweighs the benefits of a stopover(s), even if that stopover is cheaper, and hence consumers will adopt that mode of travel as the new 'regular'. I don't think product offerings will make a difference.

The exact same can be said about Australia to Europe nonstop, and I think Sunrise and the PER Western Hub is quite clearly forward thinking which the mainstream travelling public are bound to eventually adopt as the standard way to travel between Australia and Europe. Nonstop to Europe is already very popular in Perth and I can only imagine it would be even more popular for the east coast. If anything, the competition that QF needs to look out for when Sunrise and the Western Hub are fully up and running will be from European airlines potentially seeking to launch nonstop to Australia, not existing or new Asian/ME "stopover" players.

 

[jase05]

Unsure if you're talking about the PER Western Hub or Sunrise, but I think your point is increasingly leaning towards being outdated.

Apart from a very niche market, who still stops in Fiji/Hawaii/NZ when travelling from Australia to North America, which was once the norm before technology improved? Who still flies two-stop between Australia and Europe, which was once the norm before technology improved? History suggests that the benefit of less or no stops due to an improvement in technology outweighs the benefits of a stopover(s), even if that stopover is cheaper, and hence consumers will adopt that mode of travel as the new 'regular'. I don't think product offerings will make a difference.

The exact same can be said about Australia to Europe nonstop, and I think Sunrise and the PER Western Hub is quite clearly forward thinking which the mainstream travelling public are bound to eventually adopt as the standard way to travel between Australia and Europe. Nonstop to Europe is already very popular in Perth and I can only imagine it would be even more popular for the east coast. If anything, the competition that QF needs to look out for when Sunrise and the Western Hub are fully up and running will be from European airlines potentially seeking to launch nonstop to Australia, not existing or new Asian/ME "stopover" players.

But as you keep forgetting, plenty of Australians don’t live in Melbourne, Sydney or Perth so it’s still 1 stop and these QF flights will go to 4-5 European ports absolute maximum still necessitating a stop in Europe at a ordinary LHR or worse CDG.
Not everyone wants to fly into those 4 or 5 ports and many people actually prefer avoiding them.
The ME airlines have a huge advantage in that they so many direct flights from their hub to almost every European port and in a widebody.
Personally after a 17hr flight the last thing I’d want to do is go through CDG to jump on a narrow body for 2hrs to reach my final destination. If I’m flying to LHR or CDG then it might make sense but if you are going to say Zurich or Madrid then for many its still a 2 stop flight from Australia

 

[elanshin]

There's market for both. Just like sunrise for SYD- JFK won't kill LAX as a stopover, nor will SYD - LHR have any material impact on the current routes to Europe.

 

[SYD]

But as you keep forgetting, plenty of Australians don’t live in Melbourne, Sydney or Perth so it’s still 1 stop and these QF flights will go to 4-5 European ports absolute maximum still necessitating a stop in Europe at a ordinary LHR or worse CDG.
Not everyone wants to fly into those 4 or 5 ports and many people actually prefer avoiding them.
The ME airlines have a huge advantage in that they so many direct flights from their hub to almost every European port and in a widebody.
Personally after a 17hr flight the last thing I’d want to do is go through CDG to jump on a narrow body for 2hrs to reach my final destination. If I’m flying to LHR or CDG then it might make sense but if you are going to say Zurich or Madrid then for many its still a 2 stop flight from Australia

I doubt too many QF PAX are using the ex PER flights to connect to other ports in Europe when they can just book the EK codeshare (probably cheaper) to a range of places.