Qantas - Sorry But I Am Over You

[MEL_Traveller]

I am saying that I will not be told what I can and can't say in public and people should not look down on someone because they do not agree with their opinion.

I will continue to call my wife "sweetie" and she will continue to call me "darling". I really don't care who feels offended by what we call each other. This should not even come up as a topic to be debated.

But what you call each other in a family of social setting has never been part of the debate. Focusing on this misconception perhaps detracts from appreciating the positive intent behind the initiative... that your daughter won't get called 'love' by the same check-in agent who caller her travelling partner 'sir'.

 

[RSD]

I choose my airline primarily based on my thoughts of their safety and the quality of their pilots - what the non-uniformed staff say is pretty irrelevant to me.

 

[Happy Dude]

It's possible you're over-reacting here, HVR. You may have received Mr Plumber's cistern by mistake due to a mix up at the cistern warehouse. He may have yours.

I highly doubt that it was a deliberate attempt to be exclusive HVR. More like the Chinese kid who typed it up did not know any better or even cared that 1 in a zillion plumbers in Australia might be female and their systems ought to accommodate that and any other possible outcome. You should ensure your plumber sources products from more enlightened and progressive societies that are sensitive to, and have a full and demonstrated understanding of, our sensitivities, if it's that big a deal.

 

[Hvr]

You may have received Mr Plumber's cistern by mistake due to a mix up at the cistern warehouse. He may have yours.

A facetious response that misses the point. I chose the toilet as part of my renovations. If I had known the company was sexist I wouldn't have chosen their product.

There is no need to address this advice to a specific gender. It should be addressed as 'Dear Plumber' to remind the person fitting the cistern of specific requirements.

The instructions would have been written in Australia so it is a company issue not a Chinese manufacturing issue.

As a white bloke who's never had to worry about acceptance or even acknowledgement it behoves me to make life easier for those who suffer discrimination on a daily basis by identifying and calling it out as unacceptable.

How happy would you be if your occupational tools etc were exclusively addressed to another gender? Especially if you were the minority gender in that role?

My plumber has seen this before and showed me to highlight one of the issues she faces in her daily professional life. I chose this person to project manage and work on my renovations based on her reputation and proposal. Not her gender.

Surely the makers of plumbing supplies don't only want to sell to one gender? Yet it appears that they do based on their sexist instructions.

 

[Happy Dude]

Now I'm sure you're over-reacting. It's a stupid clumsy sticker clearly written by a foreigner. It doesn't prevent your female tradie from doing anything, nor does it discriminate against her. It doesn't include her - that's it. It also excludes male plumbers younger than 18 too, technically, so where's their love? Or the plumbers who don't wish to be addressed by a title at all, you know, for having their person genderised?

The leap from that sticker to "this is a sexist company that want only men to use their products" is way too lateral for my comprehension. Your civic chivalry is most noble though - good luck avoiding goods and services from countries and cultures that treat women equally.

 

[JohnK]

The instructions would have been written in Australia so it is a company issue not a Chinese manufacturing issue.

Could have also been written in Khon Kaen or Udon Thani by someone who left school in year 5 and has never seen any tradespeople other than males.

As a white bloke who's never had to worry about acceptance or even acknowledgement it behoves me to make life easier for those who suffer discrimination on a daily basis by identifying and calling it out as unacceptable.

Couple of points.

I am not quite white but I don't feel accepted in Thailand. I am tolerated as long as I am spending money but many locals and even tourists show very little respect. That also gets worse with certain ethnic groups and it is quite clear they are rude and racist.

I have been overweight since early 90's and obese the past 15 years or so. Never fully accepted even with "friends". Go shopping and try to find pleated pants greater than size 107. Not easy. You learn to cope.

How happy would you be if your occupational tools etc were exclusively addressed to another gender? Especially if you were the minority gender in that role?

CRT's, keyboards, mice etc? Wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

It is quite clear that different things are important to different people.

 

[marki]

Typo was suppose to be MRS, they then figured skipping the S will save them on black ink. "S"aving money.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I choose my airline primarily based on my thoughts of their safety and the quality of their pilots - what the non-uniformed staff say is pretty irrelevant to me.

I suspect for many of us comfort also plays a role in our considerations. If QF was offering a 28 inch seat pitch and buy on board meals and drinks all the way to London we may reconsider our carrier, no matter how good the pilots.

And for some, the intangible comfort of being accepted, respected and included is just as important as the more tangible ones like legroom and food.

 

[Deleted member]

A facetious response that misses the point. I chose the toilet as part of my renovations. If I had known the company was sexist I wouldn't have chosen their product.

There is no need to address this advice to a specific gender. It should be addressed as 'Dear Plumber' to remind the person fitting the cistern of specific requirements.

The instructions would have been written in Australia so it is a company issue not a Chinese manufacturing issue.

As a white bloke who's never had to worry about acceptance or even acknowledgement it behoves me to make life easier for those who suffer discrimination on a daily basis by identifying and calling it out as unacceptable.

How happy would you be if your occupational tools etc were exclusively addressed to another gender? Especially if you were the minority gender in that role?

My plumber has seen this before and showed me to highlight one of the issues she faces in her daily professional life. I chose this person to project manage and work on my renovations based on her reputation and proposal. Not her gender.

Surely the makers of plumbing supplies don't only want to sell to one gender? Yet it appears that they do based on their sexist instructions.

View attachment 120298

And in the cistern my female plumber is installing was this sticker.

In what way is this acceptable? It deliberately excludes female plumbers.
Or more likely refuses to acknowledge they even exist.

At worst it’s mildly insensitive, would you be happier with : “Dear non gender specific plumbing technician “?
At what point do you stop taking offence?
Aside from this slip of paper, (and the really important information isn’t getting any attention from you) you have no proof positive that the organization is sexist , ageist or racially biased , other than a fairly benign set of instructions. ...... or is there more information you’re not revealing in your posts? .... I suspect not.
Moreover the alternative supplier may in fact hide their sexism and you end up doing the very thing you set out not to do !
It is no different from the way Mrs GPH and I are treated when doing a range of different shopping expeditions. If we are in a kitchen shop, Mrs GPH gets the attention, and as “most” staff in shops like this tend to be female, I don’t see that as sexist. However as I do 99% of the cooking in our house, it’s a pointless exercise in trying to sell her a saucepan or other implement.
That said, about 80% of buying decisions are by women, so on balance it would be understandable that she is the targeted consumer.
Am I offended? No.

 

[ALH]

At worst it’s mildly insensitive, would you be happier with : “Dear non gender specific plumbing technician “?
At what point do you stop taking offence?
Aside from this slip of paper, (and the really important information isn’t getting any attention from you) you have no proof positive that the organization is sexist , ageist or racially biased , other than a fairly benign set of instructions. ...... or is there more information you’re not revealing in your posts? .... I suspect not.
Moreover the alternative supplier may in fact hide their sexism and you end up doing the very thing you set out not to do !
It is no different from the way Mrs GPH and I are treated when doing a range of different shopping expeditions. If we are in a kitchen shop, Mrs GPH gets the attention, and as “most” staff in shops like this tend to be female, I don’t see that as sexist. However as I do 99% of the cooking in our house, it’s a pointless exercise in trying to sell her a saucepan or other implement.
That said, about 80% of buying decisions are by women, so on balance it would be understandable that she is the targeted consumer.
Am I offended? No.

Mmmmm. Reminds me of the time I was hanging some shelving and went Bunnings to get some Rawl Plugs. The older male employee who came to my assistance finding the right size, instructed me to go home and get my husband to write down what he needed.

Not only wasn’t my husband in the country, but I’m the only who does the building and repairs at home.

My response? “How about F... you”?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

At worst it’s mildly insensitive, would you be happier with : “Dear non gender specific plumbing technician “?

What's wrong with 'Dear Plumber'? The thing about inclusive language is that it is often the easiest path, both in time and mental functioning.

 

[Pushka]

Remembering this thread I posted last night about another AFF’ers Significant Other who is travelling with them. I didn’t know and didn’t want to, offend them by calling her his wife, spouse, partner or .....whatever. I ended up saying wife. Maybe I shouldn’t. But it’s becoming awfully difficult these days not to unintentionally offend someone.

 

[Deleted member]

What's wrong with 'Dear Plumber'? The thing about inclusive language is that it is often the easiest path, both in time and mental functioning.

Nothing! However, It is not automatic that the former phrase means the writer is sexist

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Nothing! However, It is not automatic that the former phrase means the writer is sexist

Indeed. But in a more relevant application - companies/government departments dealing with people - the use of gender neutral language is often the simplest path forward. To not use it may mean the person isn't giving consideration to your circumstances.

But it is also true that 'appropriate' language changes, or can be different depending on the circumstance. The use of 'African American' or 'black' for example. Then the onus is on the person using that descriptor to know what the current environment is and which phrase is appropriate with the given audience. But that takes 2 minutes of research.

 

[jb747]

It’s interesting that this ‘inclusive’ language, is actually insulting to some people. For instance, a wife may well dislike being called a partner...I know one who does. I know multiple gay couples where wife and husband are the terms that they like and use. To my mind (ancient that it is), partner has a degree of disposability to it.

It also leads us to some rather odd phrasing. I have always hated the use of the word customers to describe passengers. Coles has customers, a transport company has passengers. The same as guests...generally associated with hotels, but also an implication that guests don’t have to pay.

So, if I can’t use ‘ladies and gentlemen’ to welcome the passengers on board, what am I to use? Most phrases that come to mind are totally impersonal...and the entire point of a Captain’s welcome on board is to try to make it slightly more personal. Humans leaves out pets. Biological units leaves out robots. Self loading freight covers everyone, except people who can’t walk. Hello passengers sounds like we are talking down to them. Most words are generic and impersonal. Perhaps I should just assume that nobody listens anyway, and not do any PAs at all.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

So, if I can’t use ‘ladies and gentlemen’ to welcome the passengers on board, what am I to use? Most phrases that come to mind are totally impersonal...and the entire point of a Captain’s welcome on board is to try to make it slightly more personal. Humans leaves out pets. Biological units leaves out robots. Self loading freight covers everyone, except people who can’t walk. Hello passengers sounds like we are talking down to them. Most words are generic and impersonal. Perhaps I should just assume that nobody listens anyway, and not do any PAs at all.

Has someone indicated you can't use the phrase 'ladies and gentlemen'? It covers everyone, even transgender.

It's just another expression for 'everyone' which I guess you could substitute if you were troubled by the specifics (as in 'good afternoon everyone, a very warm welcome on board from the flightdeck'. That's a phrase I've heard even on Qantas flights).

As for the term 'customers' - I have no idea why! Agree they are 'passengers'.

 

[Pushka]

Indeed. But in a more relevant application - companies/government departments dealing with people - the use of gender neutral language is often the simplest path forward. To not use it may mean the person isn't giving consideration to your circumstances.

But it is also true that 'appropriate' language changes, or can be different depending on the circumstance. The use of 'African American' or 'black' for example. Then the onus is on the person using that descriptor to know what the current environment is and which phrase is appropriate with the given audience. But that takes 2 minutes of research.

Councils now call us Clients or Customers. No. We have no choice. We have to pay your rates.

 

[jb747]

Has someone indicated you can't use the phrase 'ladies and gentlemen'? It covers everyone, even transgender.

The initial note (or whatever it was) hasn't been sent to pilots, so no they haven't. I'm just amusing myself (!) reading this thread.

It's just another expression for 'everyone' which I guess you could substitute if you were troubled by the specifics (as in 'good afternoon everyone, a very warm welcome on board from the flightdeck'. That's a phrase I've heard even on Qantas flights).

That's the sort of PA I hate...especially that from the flight deck bit. Where else would you be making the PA from?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

That's the sort of PA I hate...especially that from the flight deck bit. Where else would you be making the PA from?

I guess because pilots don't always begin their message by identifying themselves, so 'from the flightdeck' (or whatever) gives context. It could be cabin crew otherwise.

A welcome 'from the flightdeck' is also perhaps more inclusive as it collectively includes everyone up there, rather than just the captain or first officer?

 

[docjames]

View attachment 120298

And in the cistern my female plumber is installing was this sticker.

In what way is this acceptable? It deliberately excludes female plumbers.
Or more likely refuses to acknowledge they even exist.

Obviously, any female plumbers already know this and don' t need reminding.