Qantas tells 120 pilots they can go fly for Emirates

[Moopere]

The naivety of the above 2 posts is breathtaking.
Would you "jump at the chance to live overseas for a while" if upon your return your airline had relocated to Singapore and your employer was not obliged to either re-hire you, nor pay out your redundancy.

Seriously? You'd let go of an opportunity that not only would be an 'adventure' (hehe) but might also turn into a permanent position ... and if we're dooming and glooming here then its assumed your position is going to be made redundant. So, turn all that down to get your measly redundancy payout?

Bleah to that. I will never wait for the axe to fall.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a HR drone years ago. I wanted to move from permanent employ to contract as it suited me financially at the time. Got an absolute flat out refusal with the reasoning being that I'd lose my 1 month payout if I was ever let go .... what? You have to be kidding me. Forgo opportunity now so I can be in line for a bag of peanuts later?

In any event, with that rant over, if this deal is truly 'leave without pay' then QF can't wriggle out of paying redundancies, the pilots would still be legally employed, but on leave.

So long as the EK conditions and remuneration were realistic I'd snap this up, even if my current employ was a happy and rewarding one.

 

[Major]

Does anyone know how many FO's are employed by Qantas ?

What affect would this have on the remaining pilot pool ?

 

[MrHyde]

I don't see anything nefarious in QF offering this. In fact, I think it is a great deal for the pilots. If the deal is the same as others like in the academic fields or Telstra (I've got experience with those two) or the finance industry , there is no down side to the offer. The pilots are still employed by QF (leave without pay) and QF have to provide a role to them when they come back. If QF can't offer them a role, then QF is liable for redundancy payments. Similar deals are usually for a period of 1 year and 3 years is a long time.

The pilots get the opportunity to try a different company in an overseas location, work under a different environment and culture, fly new routes, etc. If they like it, the is the opportunity to resign QF and join EK. If they don't like it, can come back to same position.

At Telstra, there were a number of ex-colleagues who took similar deals to go work in Canada, US and Europe. Some of them resigned. During that period Telstra went through re-structures and people were made redundant. Some of those on leave, came back for a week, took the redundancy package and went back... free money!!

I feel those saying this is a way for QF to not fulfill their commitments to their staff is just not true and just another part of the whole QF bashing. This is a smart way for QF to reduce their costs while still retaining a skilled pilot base in the future and for the pilots to explore other opportunities safe in the knowledge that they can come back to QF to the same position as when the left.

 

[browski]

If there is nothing nefarious in QF's actions (and there is zero chance of the pilots losing their payout entitlements), why don't QF just offer the redundancy payouts right now?

 

[markis10]

Why does everybody seem to think any change to Qantas is a bad thing?

The negativity in this forum, particularly towards Qantas has increased considerably over the past few month or two.

It's really disappointing to be honest.



I agree with you Tae. This is great a great experience, it's completely optional, I'm sure some pilots would jump at the chance to live overseas for a while. I know I would.

These forums have a high percentage of very frequent flyers or those that do significant travel in premium cabins, with the changes to the frequent flyer program and removal of premium cabin routes on an ongoing basis are you surprised there is negativity? Many of us were also elite members of Golden Wing, and remember who were driving that boat into rocky waters back then, I don't want to see it a second time, and I don't want to see the JQ culture prevail like it seems to be, because I believe it's not a culture that puts customers first.

Qantas international has been doing badly for seven years, now let me think, when were the A380s and dream liners due, and who has been given the benefit of the very cheap A330s that were part of the A380 compo while the mainline suffers from increased maintenance for an aging fleet, it's a bit like AVIS having VE commodores while Budget has VP Commodores and then deciding to sell the VPs and give the mechanics a job with Hertz!

 

[odysseus]

If there is nothing nefarious in QF's actions (and there is zero chance of the pilots losing their payout entitlements), why don't QF just offer the redundancy payouts right now?

Cause they're not redundant.

Why should QF payout hundreds of thousands to an employee they are happy to keep for now? If the market booms up in a year and the employee returns because they miss their friends and family, they're back as a paid employee.

Of course, I understand pilots would like an extra few hundred thousand in the exact same scenario, but that's not what redundancy is about.

 

[browski]

Cause they're not redundant.

Why should QF payout hundreds of thousands to an employee they are happy to keep for now? If the market booms up in a year and the employee returns because they miss their friends and family, they're back as a paid employee.

Of course, I understand pilots would like an extra few hundred thousand in the exact same scenario, but that's not what redundancy is about.

Asking 130 of your key pilots to spend 3 years with the opposition because you don't really need them, would fit the definition of redundancy anywhere in the world.

If there is a way to circumvent the Qantas act within those 3 years so that upon the pilot's return, there is no obligation to pay them out anything...........that is nefarious.

Anyway, I really am indifferent about the fate of Qantas. I have zero care factor. From a layman's outside view, I just suspect the red roo is being slaughtered by a poor leader (not that there is anything wrong with that)

 

[drron]

If there is nothing nefarious in QF's actions (and there is zero chance of the pilots losing their payout entitlements), why don't QF just offer the redundancy payouts right now?

Mate you have already been told they will be on leave without pay.Check your IR laws if there is no job for them on returning there will be a redundancy payout-the law says so.

 

[docjames]

The only way I can see this conceivably saving money for qf is if the majority who go on secondment to ek choose to leave qf of their own accord, and their jobs are then filled by more junior FOs or SOs who may be on lower pay scales due to less years of tenure. Combine with and overall decrease in the number of positions otherwise you just end up with training costs and the savings aren't worth it.If they return from secondment to no job they're still eligible for redundancy payments. QF would just hope some choose to leave first.IMO I don't think this is as controversial as some would like to believe. Many major organizations provide leave alliances (usually unpaid) for "career breaks".

 

[markis10]

The only way I can see this conceivably saving money for qf is if the majority who go on secondment to ek choose to leave qf of their own accord, and their jobs are then filled by more junior FOs or SOs who may be on lower pay scales due to less years of tenure. Combine with and overall decrease in the number of positions otherwise you just end up with training costs and the savings aren't worth it.If they return from secondment to no job they're still eligible for redundancy payments. QF would just hope some choose to leave first.IMO I don't think this is as controversial as some would like to believe. Many major organizations provide leave alliances (usually unpaid) for "career breaks".

Given the upcoming cuts for QF mainline, its saves QF money by not having to pay their wages for three years when they may have an oversupply of pilots for flights, its also likely that a condition of their return might be to go on a new agreement thats not so generous, although the looming pilots shortage could see a lot go elsewhere. If you are going to put the fleet out to pasture with no replacements for a while then you dont need the crew, both cabin and technical.

 

[browski]

Mate you have already been told they will be on leave without pay.Check your IR laws if there is no job for them on returning there will be a redundancy payout-the law says so.

Sorry mate, I'm not sure what I was thinking. No cause for concern here. And those silly little pilots should feel safe and secure that a decent airline like Qantas will do the right and honorable thing by them. There is certainly no way that the law can be circumvented on this one.

 

[Robert K]

is there really a need to be snarky.

Secondment is not that uncommon, I had it at my workplace.

The person was on lease to us for a year, at the end of the year, GFC hit, and she got made redundant, but then we hired her. Win Win.

You can read about secondments here
What Is A Secondment And What Are The Benefits?

 

[nlagalle]

I'm guessing you are one of the throng that believe that Rupert's decision to close News of the World was a noble, rather than a fiscal act.

I can tell you now it had nothing to do with money.. News of the World had a circulation of over 3 million. It wasn't losing money.

 

[nlagalle]

Sorry mate, I'm not sure what I was thinking. No cause for concern here. And those silly little pilots should feel safe and secure that a decent airline like Qantas will do the right and honorable thing by them. There is certainly no way that the law can be circumvented on this one.

Why don't you look at it from another angle - there is a downturn coming, rather than pay out a redundancy, give them leave without pay let them fly for another airline and come back afterwards if things pick up? certainly cheaper for the airline.

And as pointed out, many industries do it already. or is it sinister because it is QF doing it?

 

[browski]

Can I say to odysseus and DrRon and others on this thread that I apologise for being both rude and snide.
I think that too many days on the road makes me grumpy and abrupt. I'll try to respond with a bit more grace and humour rather than being an aggressive cough.

Since I feel I have lowered the tone of the thread, maybe I can try to make amends and raise the tone.

To nlagalle: The News of the World income appears to be pocket money compared to the BSKYB deal that is at serious risk for Murdoch. Cutting loose NOTW seems to certainly be a fiscal decision in this regard. Would you agree with this?

To Pu Koh: Thanks for pulling me into line, I forget how abrupt I can be. As for the example which you supplied regarding your colleague, you described it as a win-win. Please don't think me being picky, but wasn't it a Win-Lose? A win for her, but a lose for the company?
The company paid a redundancy pay out and then employed her back. Surely the company lost?

My issue with the secondment is that I cannot see what the upside is for Qantas Mgt. This is not an altruistic decision, they would make this offer on a purely fiscal basis (for themselves).
I see Qantas as a shrinking company, and I see JetStar as a growing company. It just seems to me that if these pilots return it can only be to a Jetstar contract, not a Qantas one. What do you guys think? Would Qantas try that on, or would it be too obvious a ploy?
Once again, apologies for my previous tone.

 

[nlagalle]

To nlagalle: The News of the World income appears to be pocket money compared to the BSKYB deal that is at serious risk for Murdoch. Cutting loose NOTW seems to certainly be a fiscal decision in this regard. Would you agree with this?

Pocket money it may appear to be, but it is a regular stream. However that stream was killed when advertisers pulled the plug. From what I have seen the Sun will probably start to publish 7 days a week very soon. So no, closing it down was certainly not a fiscal decision - NOTW wasn't losing money either. Newspapers are still a major revenue for News Corp worldwide.

 

[oz_mark]

My issue with the secondment is that I cannot see what the upside is for Qantas Mgt. This is not an altruistic decision, they would make this offer on a purely fiscal basis (for themselves).

I see Qantas as a shrinking company, and I see JetStar as a growing company. It just seems to me that if these pilots return it can only be to a Jetstar contract, not a Qantas one. What do you guys think? Would Qantas try that on, or would it be too obvious a ploy?
Once again, apologies for my previous tone.

The bottom line is, as Alan Joyce commented on the weekend, Qantas has to many pilots. Presumably this has come about as Qantas mainline is a shrinking business. To date they have been managing this by encouraging the pilots to take annual leave. It seems thay may have gone as far as they can with that.

Emirates seem to have come to Qantas to see if they have any pilots that might be interested (it would seem that it is in the pilots contracts, so someone must have thought it was a good idea), and Qantas inform the pilots that 120 can go for a period of time.

I doubt they would have to come back on the Jetstar contract, but they may not come back to the position they were in when they left.

 

[Moopere]

My issue with the secondment is that I cannot see what the upside is for Qantas Mgt. This is not an altruistic decision, they would make this offer on a purely fiscal basis (for themselves).
I see Qantas as a shrinking company, and I see JetStar as a growing company. It just seems to me that if these pilots return it can only be to a Jetstar contract, not a Qantas one. What do you guys think? Would Qantas try that on, or would it be too obvious a ploy?

Certainly I'd agree that if QF management truly thought that QF as a company was unavoidably shrinking they would bite the bullet and do the redundancies now. Its never fiscally good to keep staff past your definite unchanging future requirements.

However, the decision to allow secondment instead of immediate redundency makes me think that QF managment are not sure themselves of what the future will hold, or at least, they are sure of the short term (over supply of pilots right now) but don't know the long term yet. Finding good staff is expensive and difficult, letting them go when times are tough or you are being restructured is sometimes an unavoidable reality. The best possible solution, in my view, is to keep your staff on the books and somewhat available to you but at zero or near zero cost to the business ... thus a secondment sounds really attractive.

I have been involved with businesses who have asked for voluntary reduced working hours. A somewhat similar situation that is perhaps not as good an outcome for the employees to be honest (less weekly income). The idea from thre companies perspective is the same though. Trying hard to find a way to keep good staff whilst reducing operating cost in a short term way. you have to be reasonably confident of an upswing in the companies affairs though, otherwise early redundency is the better way.

 

[Standby]

It seems a win win from my perspective,allow yr staff to try other things,funnily enough the grass isnt always greener on the other side.
I know 2 flyboys who have gone to the desert for Gulf & EK and after a few years they cant wait (or the family insist) they come home.
With their seniority secure and 2-3 years down the track a number above them have retired . QF get to save ongoing training or reskilling if they move up to A380s from A330s/767s. It seems in the medium term less crew are needed with the hope that in a couple of years the new expansion part of the business will drive growth to the mainline..well thats the plan I'm sure

 

[markis10]

The bottom line is, as Alan Joyce commented on the weekend, Qantas has to many pilots. Presumably this has come about as Qantas mainline is a shrinking business. To date they have been managing this by encouraging the pilots to take annual leave. It seems thay may have gone as far as they can with that.

Emirates seem to have come to Qantas to see if they have any pilots that might be interested (it would seem that it is in the pilots contracts, so someone must have thought it was a good idea), and Qantas inform the pilots that 120 can go for a period of time.

I doubt they would have to come back on the Jetstar contract, but they may not come back to the position they were in when they left.

Well things are going to get interesting, I doubt may of the 120 going should it happen will come back, by then QF wont be the airline they left and their services will be in high demand on a world wide basis:

Qantas long-haul pilots have voted to take protected industrial action against the airline for the first time in 45 years.

Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) vice-president Richard Woodward said 94 per cent of the 1429 pilots who voted in a ballot were in favour of the action.
The pilots were also asked to vote on types of industrial action, and a final strategy would be mapped out over the weekend, Mr Woodward said.
‘‘It’s up to us what action we will be taking over the next few days,’’ he told reporters.
The association wants Qantas to give assurances on job security.
It has cited concerns about the outsourcing and offshoring of pilot jobs at Qantas.

Read more: Pilots' action set to hit Qantas ​

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