Qantas to move to new Perth Airport terminal, expand Perth hub

But, serious question. Will the sunrise flight from London to Sydney and VV really only save the flyer three hours? Surely it must be more than that?

I am making that assumption based on SQ23 vs SQ 25 (JFK-SIN, nonstop vs via FRA). Both leave JFK in the evening and arrive in SiN in the morning, and sometimes following very similar flight paths (and sometimes the opposite directions, that won’t apply to sunrise though). The time difference between the two is about 3hrs. Slightly shorter than LHR-SYD which might mean a little bit more time savings.

A couple of references (noting PER-LHR nonstop vs via SIN is 2:10 time difference)

IMG_8313.jpegIMG_8312.jpeg
 
Not really that much more expensive than everyone else.

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Still $500pp to save 3hrs or so. For a couple or family that adds up.
Obviously there are cheaper dates, sales etc.
We are probably heading back to the UK in early next year and I’ve been keeping my eyes on dates and QF is around $9-10k return in J whereas others are around $6-8k QF is not really a consideration for us at the moment
 
Assuming that sunrise will trim 3 hrs off QF2. Currently schedule is 2045/0510, that would put it into SYD at 0210. If you pushed that to 2245 that would be 0410. What is the latest that LHR allows departures? But come summer (the Australian one that is) the schedule is 1955/0615, so it would be 1955/0315. But if you pushed it to 2155, that could work better ,with say 2255/0515.
Latest departure for Heathrow is 2300. Current legislation says that sydney airport will lose the morning shoulder curfew exemption, so no landings before 6am.

Will need something to change here to make it work.
 
@dajop i’m genuinely very surprised at that, if it materialises. Maybe the departure/arrival timings will make it compelling for businessmen, at least. But a businessman arriving in time for the business day means a tourist who can't check in to their accommodation for 4-6 hours.

As I said above, I’m sure there is a market for it, I’m sure they’ll get decent loadings, but a saving of only 3-4 hours puts it in the novelty class for me. Can't imagine ever paying a premium for that, and factoring in the other considerations I’ve mentioned before.
 
That’ll actually impact more airlines than just QF. BA and SQ have scheduled arrivals before 6am. QF only has two - probably not a biggy to schedule for 6am.

Too bad if there’s favourable tailwinds…
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I was just placing this because I think it is quite possible that BA will stop BA 15/16 from SIN if the SYD shoulder period from 0500 is ceased. I can imagine the reaction from a certain member -See BA is scared of QF non stops to LHR

The problem is that LHR whilst not have a curfew has a night time restriction of 5800 flights, take offs and landings between 2230and 0430.

And from the LHR website-
At Heathrow we do not have any scheduled departures between 22:50 - 06:00 or scheduled arrivals between 22:55 - 04:45. This means that there are no scheduled flights after 22:55 and before 04:45.

Heathrow also has a voluntary ban in place that prevents flights scheduled between 04:30 - 06:00 from landing before 04:30.

Over 90% of all the scheduled movements that operate during the night quota period are early morning arrivals and the majority of these are scheduled to arrive after 05:00.

In addition, Heathrow does not have any scheduled freight flights in the night quota period (23:30 - 06:00).

At present BA 15 leaves LHR at 2110 in our winter and 2155 in our summer. Any delay over 1 hour in our summer or 2 hours in winter usually means the flight is cancelled.
 
As someone who has been spending a lot of time off reading about the airline business, there is a lot of misinformation coming from this thread. I'm not even sure where to begin.
TLDR at the bottom.


1) Airlines make their money primarily based off selling tickets. Pricing for said tickets is dictated by demand. Demand for specific flights, demand for specific airlines, demand for specific timings, demand for specific seats, etc. (Keep in mind that comment I made about demand for specific airlines for later.)

The size of a market truly doesn't matter if you can charge high fares.
I could yap on and on about this but lets take an example. Counterwise why isn't there much service from Los Angeles to Mexico? On paper there is a big Mexican community in SoCal but the yields are trashy, meaning people aren't willing to pay a lot for a flight between here.

2) Demand.
Australia to Europe is a big market. Trying to compare the USA to Oceania to that doesn't make sense because that market is far smaller. There are going to simply going to be more people connecting over Asia or the Middle East as a result.

Again trying to conpare these two markets doesn't take into account each specific market. Is there a long history of masses of people connecting to the USA from Aus? No there isn't, people to/from here have not been trained to connect the same way pax have been to/from Europe. Most demand to/from Oceania is to the USA is to Los Angeles anyways which is a geographically ideal hub.

You're never going to get a nonstop from Perth to Munich. You're never going to get a nonstop from Melbourne to Belgrave. You're never going to a nonstop from Sydney to Milan. The demand simply isn’t there and you will need a big connecting hub to handle these smaller markets. That's why QF partnered with EK in the first place.

3) Misunderstanding traffic flows.
A good portion of the traffic from these Asia and ME hubs is people wanting to get to said places in Asia and the ME. Connecting a few passengers on a plane is an easy way to make a few extra bucks as naturally due to all the competition for one stop connections
Yes airlines do take advantage of this and add extra seats to take into account extra connecting passengers and make extra cash on top but those planes wouldn't be flying without the O/D component.

4) Seasons.
Airlines make money in summer (when demand is high), they don’t make money in winter.
One way to get around this is by sending planes where either they make more (or lose less) money where demand is stronger during winter. Since the southern hemisphere has the opposite season of what's in the northern hemisphere, airlines can squeeze a few extra bucks by sending capacity down under during northern winter aka southern summer.
You're going to see airlines keep serving Australia for that reason alone.

5) Growth.
Australia has a rapidly growing population and good economic growth. This increases demand over time and allows plenty of room for more supply to be added here. (This also means more airlines want to fly here for strategic reasons but that's a separate topic.)

6) Case study - New York to Delhi flights.
Did you know that Air India, despite their POS on the Indian end and flying nonstop pulls in the lowest average fares on this route?
United (nonstop), American (nonstop but super weak in NYC), even Emirates who force pax to connect overnight manage to charge more for their flights to Delhi from NYC than Air India.

Why am I bringing this up? I'll leave you to your thoughts...

7) Your personal opinion doesn't matter. Harsh truth but you have to look at the facts, data and the overall big picture.


We do realise that they ordered only 12 ULH capable planes right? (And that long flights like this need 2 or 3 or 4 frames each?) And that they only have four LHR slots?
Similar to JetBlue and their European flights QF won't make a dent in the market.

Perth has served as a great hub for Qantas, and it will continue to serve as a great Western Gateway for QF and the WA economy.
But this idea that Qantas, an airline whose reputation has fallen significantly, an airline that can't even attract half the pax travelling between Perth and London (most pax still connect), will somehow steal thousands of passengers travelling betwen Oceania and Europe daily, fill up all these planes and make bank is nonsense.


TLDR:
Passengers will not suddenly stop flying dozens of airlines en masse in favour of a much more expensive nonstop, nonstop flights that may not ever exist.
 
I think it would be a very non-competitive decision for QF to install the current 2014 seats on the 787-10 and new 787-9s in 2027. In 2024, it's still a very competitive product but arguably the same can't be said for the years after 2027. It could and should be the A350 suites that are installed. Indeed, 2027 will mark 10 years of VH-ZNA being in service and fits well for the start of a 787 retrofitting program to bring the existing 787 fleet in line with the A350s and newer 787s. Also, if F proves to be popular on the A350 then I don't see why the 787-10s shouldn't get F as well.
The narrower cabin may be an issue. I can't off the top of my head think of any 787's with F?
 
TLDR:
Passengers will not suddenly stop flying dozens of airlines en masse in favour of a much more expensive nonstop, nonstop flights that may not ever exist.

I think *almost* everyone contributing to this thread would agree with you. Although it is good to have some people occasionally that challenge the orthodox thinking, as we see here, but that doesn’t mean their predictions will come true.
 
No. I think the best you get is express from Richmond to Camberwell and from Camberwell to Box Hill. 🤣
Lol yes. I was wondering did they mean Belgrade? Unlikely. Beirut? Nah. Belfast? Possibly troubling. Berlin? Probably ..

Belgrave fave me a chuckle :)


.
 
As someone who has been spending a lot of time off reading about the airline business, there is a lot of misinformation coming from this thread. I'm not even sure where to begin.
TLDR at the bottom.


1) Airlines make their money primarily based off selling tickets. Pricing for said tickets is dictated by demand. Demand for specific flights, demand for specific airlines, demand for specific timings, demand for specific seats, etc. (Keep in mind that comment I made about demand for specific airlines for later.)

The size of a market truly doesn't matter if you can charge high fares.
I could yap on and on about this but lets take an example. Counterwise why isn't there much service from Los Angeles to Mexico? On paper there is a big Mexican community in SoCal but the yields are trashy, meaning people aren't willing to pay a lot for a flight between here.

2) Demand.
Australia to Europe is a big market. Trying to compare the USA to Oceania to that doesn't make sense because that market is far smaller. There are going to simply going to be more people connecting over Asia or the Middle East as a result.

Again trying to conpare these two markets doesn't take into account each specific market. Is there a long history of masses of people connecting to the USA from Aus? No there isn't, people to/from here have not been trained to connect the same way pax have been to/from Europe. Most demand to/from Oceania is to the USA is to Los Angeles anyways which is a geographically ideal hub.

You're never going to get a nonstop from Perth to Munich. You're never going to get a nonstop from Melbourne to Belgrave. You're never going to a nonstop from Sydney to Milan. The demand simply isn’t there and you will need a big connecting hub to handle these smaller markets. That's why QF partnered with EK in the first place.

3) Misunderstanding traffic flows.
A good portion of the traffic from these Asia and ME hubs is people wanting to get to said places in Asia and the ME. Connecting a few passengers on a plane is an easy way to make a few extra bucks as naturally due to all the competition for one stop connections
Yes airlines do take advantage of this and add extra seats to take into account extra connecting passengers and make extra cash on top but those planes wouldn't be flying without the O/D component.

4) Seasons.
Airlines make money in summer (when demand is high), they don’t make money in winter.
One way to get around this is by sending planes where either they make more (or lose less) money where demand is stronger during winter. Since the southern hemisphere has the opposite season of what's in the northern hemisphere, airlines can squeeze a few extra bucks by sending capacity down under during northern winter aka southern summer.
You're going to see airlines keep serving Australia for that reason alone.

5) Growth.
Australia has a rapidly growing population and good economic growth. This increases demand over time and allows plenty of room for more supply to be added here. (This also means more airlines want to fly here for strategic reasons but that's a separate topic.)

6) Case study - New York to Delhi flights.
Did you know that Air India, despite their POS on the Indian end and flying nonstop pulls in the lowest average fares on this route?
United (nonstop), American (nonstop but super weak in NYC), even Emirates who force pax to connect overnight manage to charge more for their flights to Delhi from NYC than Air India.

Why am I bringing this up? I'll leave you to your thoughts...

7) Your personal opinion doesn't matter. Harsh truth but you have to look at the facts, data and the overall big picture.


We do realise that they ordered only 12 ULH capable planes right? (And that long flights like this need 2 or 3 or 4 frames each?) And that they only have four LHR slots?
Similar to JetBlue and their European flights QF won't make a dent in the market.

Perth has served as a great hub for Qantas, and it will continue to serve as a great Western Gateway for QF and the WA economy.
But this idea that Qantas, an airline whose reputation has fallen significantly, an airline that can't even attract half the pax travelling between Perth and London (most pax still connect), will somehow steal thousands of passengers travelling betwen Oceania and Europe daily, fill up all these planes and make bank is nonsense.


TLDR:
Passengers will not suddenly stop flying dozens of airlines en masse in favour of a much more expensive nonstop, nonstop flights that may not ever exist.
I see much of your reasoning although are you saying that as I interpret, most use ME airports as "final destinations"? Maybe my interpretation of your wording is wrong but most pax through the likes of DXB are in transit. 65 percent or so. Doha and Abu Dhabi higher I guess

In Europe airlines make money in winter. Christmas market destinations, ski resorts. Munich , Berlin Salzburg, Turin and others do rather well in winter. Amsterdam is just strong in winter . Yes some of the charter companies place their aircraft elsewhere for the season and Ryanair simply park others up. Easyjet seem to do just fine 12 months of the year.

Not sure about your Air India reference. They are cheaper because no one really wants to fly them as first choice. (Even if direct). They probably operate the route as a loss because strategically they want to operate to NYC. (Interested to know if they make money on that route).

QF may have many presently routing MEL to LHR via PER. They obviously think that is of no consequence now as the are going PER to LHR without originating from MEL soon.

What airlines are actually sending extra capacity to Australia during Northern Hemp winter?

Perth as a great hub to Qantas? Not sure about that at all. 4 overseas flights on a one daily basis with two of them seasonal? Yes they have domestics ...but nothing even to the closest overseas.
 
I'm still doubtful that PER would be a serious stopover challenge for the East coast.

If we even forget about ME stops for a moment, there's SIN, HKG, HND as top tier airports and cities with stopovers that make excellent day trip or side trips.

TPE, ICN, BKK, KUL are a step behind but still imo better than PER.

So PER would need a lot more to attract East coast as a stopover.

As a standalone for WA to connect and develop more, PER will be vital for the future and I fully believe that this overall upgrade will be a step to that. I've seen some sprinkling of tourism in Singapore for WA, but perhaps more targeted campaigns in Europe and Asia might see an increase in overall tourism and business for WA.
 
I see much of your reasoning although are you saying that as I interpret, most use ME airports as "final destinations"? Maybe my interpretation of your wording is wrong but most pax through the likes of DXB are in transit. 65 percent or so. Doha and Abu Dhabi higher I guess

In Europe airlines make money in winter. Christmas market destinations, ski resorts. Munich , Berlin Salzburg, Turin and others do rather well in winter. Amsterdam is just strong in winter . Yes some of the charter companies place their aircraft elsewhere for the season and Ryanair simply park others up. Easyjet seem to do just fine 12 months of the year.

Not sure about your Air India reference. They are cheaper because no one really wants to fly them as first choice. (Even if direct). They probably operate the route as a loss because strategically they want to operate to NYC. (Interested to know if they make money on that route).

QF may have many presently routing MEL to LHR via PER. They obviously think that is of no consequence now as the are going PER to LHR without originating from MEL soon.

What airlines are actually sending extra capacity to Australia during Northern Hemp winter?

Perth as a great hub to Qantas? Not sure about that at all. 4 overseas flights on a one daily basis with two of them seasonal? Yes they have domestics ...but nothing even to the closest overseas.

I'm saying that many of these flights (capacity is a difference question) to these cities would still exist with or without connecting passengers.
That's the difference between USA to Aus vs Aus to Europe. There are dozens of cities in between in Asia and the Middle East whereas there's nothing the Pacific Ocean (unless Atlantis was here).

Airlines make a lot more money in  summer winter than they do in summer winter. In the US for example American, Southwest, Spirit, JetBlue all made steep losses in the first quarter of 2024 (winter in the north). AF-KLM and Lufthansa group have had disappointing results (again winter in the north). I know AA has shuffled their network a lot to account for this and still plan to do a lot more.
Most airlines will just take on the weaker results but AA, DL, and UA in particular have decided to dump a lot of capacity here

Again I can go on and on but winter is generally a weak spot.

To the average pax there is no difference between a transit in PER vs a transit in SIN/DXB/HKG/etc. The only difference is for the airline is that they get to charge an arm and a leg for those living in Perth because people in Perth are willing to pay extra for a nonstop., and PER is and will be a great hub because it makes money plain and simple.


I don't really want to elaborate more because this has gone off-topic, and the reason I did that was because of a few others made a few dubious claims.
 
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Both BA and JAL up size their services to Australia. Both use 787s in their summer and 777s in their winter on their services to SYD.
 
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Thread topic: Qantas to move to new Perth Airport terminal, expand Perth hub
Most of the posts in the last few days are not about Perth.
Time those were deleted or move to another OMNI thread.
True. Maybe another thread though as it is obviously a point of interest so to delete is a bit authoritarian.
 
Following on from the Qantas announcement final environmental approval for the construction of the 3rd runway has just been announced. I can't currently find any link that is not behind a paywall or has web security concerns unfortunately. The initial approval was given in 2020 and the final go - ahead with many conditions was announced yesterday. The new runway will be parallel to the existing main runway but about 2.4 km to the east - the other side of the Terminal 1. This means both runways can operate concurrently. Currently with the mass FIFO movements at certain times of the day the runways are maxed out.
 

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