Qatar Airways to acquire 25% of Virgin Australia

[justinbrett]

Yes the 13th.

I'm actually reading the submission on the 13th and I think they are then stating they want the exclusive partnership on the application.

14th ACCC queried.

Then on the 15th via email (after a telephone call), they removed the exclusive partnership from the application.

Note that mud isn't clear. You can't see through mud.

So, one more time, is it exclusive or not?

 

[Bagpuss]

So, one more time, is it exclusive or not?

Don't get what you mean, it depends on your definition of "exclusive" as it can still allow limited access to others

SIA are staying (no codeshare to EMEA unless reward bookings)
SAA, VS are staying

(They didn't back track from that on the email on the 15th)

Technically, yes the QR and VA partnership remains as is. Qatar would block any further partnerships, so they wouldn't be needed.

Though end of the day I'm not a lawyer. Feel free to contact one.

Moral of the story again is Etihad is gone (regardless), and everything else broadly the same with a change to SIA. If they wanted to enter a joint venture with another airline they'd need ACCC approval anyway.

 

[HeavyElectricity]

Reward bookings are never issued under codeshare anyway, they're always issued under the operating airlines flight code, so I don't see why people are reading removing codeshare as removing reward seats?

 

[RooFlyer]

So, one more time, is it exclusive or not?

You really need to ask these questions of Virgin, I think.

 

[ben95]

Probably worse in the long run, especially when the new VFF rules kick in (status earn requiring a chunk of VA codes flying). Less choice and one of the better partner perks removed.

Yes and no I think. If you like SQ and mainly fly them to Europe, then yeah it won't work for you because you can't get them on VA code anymore. But if you are fine with QR then I'd say there are more opportunity to get a VA coded flight to Europe at a competitive price.

With metal-neutral JV like this the two airline jointly set inventory and pricing and then share revenue. There's usually not a lot of difference between a QR code vs a VA code on the same route and dates. This is unlike the previous code share partership where VA add its margin to the SQ/QR specified fares which makes the VA code always more expensive than the same flight booked with a SQ/QR code.

 

[Bagpuss]

Reward bookings are never issued under codeshare anyway, they're always issued under the operating airlines flight code, so I don't see why people are reading removing codeshare as removing reward seats?

To enforce your comment

The application is specific about no changes to the Velocity (reward) bookings. In which your comment is true because it's not a codeshare.

Velocity and Virgin Australia are different companies.

I think many forget the joint ventures all went during administration and it's currently under codeshares which doesn't need ACCC approval. (This is pointed out in the application as well.)

 

[Bagpuss]

Yes and no I think. If you like SQ and mainly fly them to Europe, then yeah it won't work for you because you can't get them on VA code anymore. But if you are fine with QR then I'd say there are more opportunity to get a VA coded flight to Europe at a competitive price.

With metal-neutral JV like this the two airline jointly set inventory and pricing and then share revenue. There's usually not a lot of difference between a QR code vs a VA code on the same route and dates. This is unlike the previous code share partership where VA add its margin to the SQ/QR specified fares which makes the VA code always more expensive than the same flight booked with a SQ/QR code.

The application does comment that for SIA they actually tell Virgin Australia at what price to charge. VA don't decide how many they sell the tickets for (seems a little bit odd).

At the start of the original relationship it didn't go down very well at SIA HQ that VA were undercutting them.

 

[justinbrett]

You really need to ask these questions of Virgin, I think.

I’d be happy to, but ACCC doesn’t seem to be having much luck. I doubt I’ll do any better.

VA just says there’s some confusion and then proceeds to both confirm and deny within the same document. Yeah, you’re right, there is confusion and you’re (VA) not helping!

Don't get what you mean, it depends on your definition of "exclusive" as it can still allow limited access to others

SIA are staying (no codeshare to EMEA unless reward bookings)
SAA, VS are staying

(They didn't back track from that on the email on the 15th)

Technically, yes the QR and VA partnership remains as is. Qatar would block any further partnerships, so they wouldn't be needed.

Though end of the day I'm not a lawyer. Feel free to contact one.

Moral of the story again is Etihad is gone (regardless), and everything else broadly the same with a change to SIA. If they wanted to enter a joint venture with another airline they'd need ACCC approval anyway.

View attachment 415537

VS and SA. Gone or not?

 

[Bagpuss]

VS and SA. Gone or not?

No they are not going, they are staying.

 

[ben95]

The application does comment that for SIA they actually tell Virgin Australia at what price to charge. VA don't decide how many they sell the tickets for (seems a little bit odd).

That's how all VA's current international codeshare arrangement works (or at least they are permitted to do so by ACCC). They have a blanket approval from ACCC dated in 2022 Virgin Australia Airlines Pty Ltd which explained why VA didn't want to sell unilateral codeshare.

 

[justinbrett]

No they are not going, they are staying.

What part are you quoting for that?

 

[Bagpuss]

What part are you quoting for that?

It's mentioned many times.



Also,



Also,

 

[justinbrett]

It's mentioned many times.

View attachment 415541

Also,

View attachment 415542

Also,

View attachment 415543

View attachment 415544

Same document:

 

[simmomelb]

What part are you quoting for that?

It clearly states, no changes, for VS and SA, in Table 1.
They've clarified this and there should be zero confusion surrounding this now.
I'm unsure how this is confusing, now?

 

[justinbrett]

It clearly states, no changes, for VS and SA, in Table 1.
They've clarified this and there should be zero confusion surrounding this now.
I'm unsure how this is confusing, now?

Yes I see that, but see the paragraph I quoted above.

They need to withdraw the document and resubmit the one that’s correct. This is ridiculous.

 

[simmomelb]

Yes I see that, but see the paragraph I quoted above.

They need to withdraw the document and resubmit the one that’s correct. This is ridiculous.

Yep, I just spotted that after I posted.
Time for them to get some new lawyers, this is beyond a joke. I have no doubt that SA and VS are business as usual, but they need to get their submissions in order.
No doubt this will delay the outcome.

 

[henrus]

One thing I haven't seen discussed a lot is how these wet leases will operate. There will all of a sudden be an extra 28 Qatar aircraft departing Australia every day!

I'm assuming they'll be similar to the Qatar/Finnair wet lease where the operator (in this case Finnair) gets to sell 10% of the seats whilst QR gets the remaining 90% to sell under their code. I flew on one of these last year (under the Finnair code) and Finnair managed the check in/boarding however it was clearly done under two different systems, at check in they asked who I booked with and at boarding they actually minimised one system (clearly the Qatar one) and opened the Finnair one to board me. Seat selection for the Finnair passengers was limited to a few rows whilst the Qatar bookings got the rest.

Now I guess this means we could see VA controlling the check in/boarding but what about lounge access (if booked on the VA code and technically VA flight operated by QR does this mean VA international lounge access could come back) and similar status benefits. It'll also become really interesting for oneworld status holders as if booked on the QR code would these be OW operated/marketed services?

 

[elanshin]

Now I guess this means we could see VA controlling the check in/boarding but what about lounge access (if booked on the VA code and technically VA flight operated by QR does this mean VA international lounge access could come back) and similar status benefits. It'll also become really interesting for oneworld status holders as if booked on the QR code would these be OW operated/marketed services?

IIRC OW code shared flights on non OW operators (aka QR code on "VA" service) will not have the same lounge access.

 

[oz_mark]

One thing I haven't seen discussed a lot is how these wet leases will operate. There will all of a sudden be an extra 28 Qatar aircraft departing Australia every day!

28 per week I think (4 per day)

 

[henrus]

28 per week I think (4 per day)

Ah oops yep, per week not day. 28 per day would be a lot!