Qatar denied extra capacity into Australia

[I love to travel]

Whilst the incident was disgraceful is it fair to punishment Qatar forever? If not, for how long? It is not like Australia has a blemish free record on human rights issues...

 

[Quickstatus]

No one is forcing anyone to fly on any particular airline.

Someone has restricted the passengers' choice

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it does seem that the treatment of those women before and after played a part in the decision.

Yes it's not yet over, the court case is in progress. Interestingly the firm representing Qatar Civil aviation authority is Gilbert and Tobin

Whilst the incident was disgraceful is it fair to punishment Qatar forever? If not, for how long?

Just until the court case is settled in the plaintiff's favour. QR/Qatar is contesting the suit though. This is just indirect pressure on them to settle.

 

[Gremlin]

It only passed by one vote - both Labor & the Greens voted against it.

The Greens seem to be all over the place on this issue.

I actually think the Greens response on this is internally consistent (I don't necessarily agree with it, but at least I see the consistency).

Given the disproportionate impact on climate change from airline travel, the Greens can't be seen to support anything that substantially increases the capacity of long haul air travel, particularly by an airline effectively underwritten by fossil fuel-generated wealth.

Supporting a Senate inquiry, with its potential to embarrass the Government into reversing its decision, doesn't help the Greens at all.

 

[Cubiscus]

The Australian published the letter dated 10/7/23 sent by the Minister to the DOHA victims expressing her horror at their treatment and assuring them that QR would not be getting extra flights. Given that we now know that the PM was not involved in the decision taken on or before that date, it does seem that the treatment of those women before and after played a part in the decision.

That needs to be corrected but on the flip side Qatar provided flights, at a loss, for Aussies to get home through the pandemic. It shouldn't be a permanent punishment.

I don't think this will solve everything but its a start.

 

[Pushka]

It just gets weirder today.
"The Prime Minister has now revealed that he did not know his government had knocked back an application from Qatar Airways for dozens of extra flights into Australia, after incorrectly telling parliament he had discussed the matter with Virgin Australia before the decision.

Transport Minister Catherine King made the Captain’s call without the Prime Minister’s knowledge – a matter the government insists is standard practice."

Are they positioning King to take the fall. And what is with all the Hansard quotes when the PM was specifically asked about it. Misleading Parliament surely.

 

[Quickstatus]

Some say that QF has been targeted by outsized criticism - maybe even unfairly.
It is the dominant player in the Australian aviation sector. It is a very well known brand worldwide and its marketing makes it very dominant in the minds of the flying public and for that matter the non flying public. It is also outspoken on a variety of issues including political and social ones that have very little to do with operating an airline other than making itself more prominent in the marketing space.

If Qantas wants to make itself a smaller target, then do so...

 

[OATEK]

The Australian published the letter dated 10/7/23 sent by the Minister to the DOHA victims expressing her horror at their treatment and assuring them that QR would not be getting extra flights. Given that we now know that the PM was not involved in the decision taken on or before that date, it does seem that the treatment of those women before and after played a part in the decision.
View attachment 342358

It just gets weirder today.
"The Prime Minister has now revealed that he did not know his government had knocked back an application from Qatar Airways for dozens of extra flights into Australia, after incorrectly telling parliament he had discussed the matter with Virgin Australia before the decision.

Transport Minister Catherine King made the Captain’s call without the Prime Minister’s knowledge – a matter the government insists is standard practice."

Are they positioning King to take the fall. And what is with all the Hansard quotes when the PM was specifically asked about it. Misleading Parliament surely.

As per the letter from the Minister to the passengers assaulted in DOHA I posted, I am not sure if it was a formal decision, or just a refusal to reopen the matter. I said very early in this thread that the first public airing came from the letter to the victims and I don't think there was any sort of press release or formal announcements from either AU or QATAR.

 

[RooFlyer]

And what is with all the Hansard quotes

Really good question. I have no idea why - but it does show a pretty chaotic decision making process, and the supporting reports of no consultation by Minister King amongst Cabinet completely puts the lie to the “ greater international processes at work” stuff that we heard earlier here.

 

[RooFlyer]

And now ABC radio reports that Foreign Minister Wong has called the Qataris to discuss the incident at Doha airport and the strip searches. But says the air services matter wasn’t discussed.

I guess that’s what the Foreign Minister should be doing, but it’s interesting timing.

 

[Saab34]

So they are talking about avoiding ‘Qatar dumping’ capacity, but they didn’t need to approve all 3 daily flights, they could have perhaps just done 1. In previous bilateral adjustments with Qatar they have added one flight here and there, not the full request. This is the first time they have granted nothing.

QR will likely try again in 5 years. Government of the day will be super probably grant it

 

[justinbrett]

Really good question. I have no idea why - but it does show a pretty chaotic decision making process, and the supporting reports of no consultation by Minister King amongst Cabinet completely puts the lie to the “ greater international processes at work” stuff that we heard earlier here.

The PM said he was not aware the decision had already been made at the time he received the call from VA.

The reports in the media saying he was not aware of the decision are misleading. He was not aware of the decision at that specific time; and that also doesn't discount that he gave direction or had a previous conversation with King about it - leaving her to make the formal decision. Doesn't it seem strange that he received a call from the VA CEO but seemingly didn't pass that information on to / have a subsequent conversation with King?

Graham Turner said last night all of the industry he speaks to believes it was the PM's call, and many journos have pointed out it would be astounding if it wasn't.

I guess we'll find out with the inquiry. Maybe...

 

[drron]

At the very least this shows a quite dysfunctional transport minister if what the PM says is true.
The minister wrote to the lawyer involved in the Qatar matter on 10/7 saying that the Australian Government is not considering granting QR extra flights.
On 13/7 the PM speaks to the VA CEO withoit knowing the decision has been made.
So the Minister had had 3 days to tell him about the decision she had made. I find that extraordinary.
And with I think every other Minister questioned also saying they were not aware of the decision being made just who is the "Australian Government" she said was not considering this matter.
So the minister and all her staff plus at least a few from the department must get the prize for their ability to keep a secret.

 

[Quickstatus]

On 13/7 the PM speaks to the VA CEO withoit knowing the decision has been made.

I don't have any evidence to the contrary, but I have a hard time accepting the PM was not told. I do accept that decisions are often made by the responsible minister without reference to a PM, but this was/is a matter that affects not just the transportation portfolio but also foreign affairs, and the "national interest". I know, maybe Im answering my own question....

 

[Chicken]

I don't have any evidence to the contrary, but I have a hard time accepting the PM was not told. I do accept that decisions are often made by the responsible minister without reference to a PM, but this was/is a matter that affects not just the transportation portfolio but also foreign affairs, and the "national interest". I know, maybe Im answering my own question....

The most we dig, the more we ask, the more holes we find in this story / timeline.

 

[justinbrett]

On 13/7 the PM speaks to the VA CEO withoit knowing the decision has been made.
So the Minister had had 3 days to tell him about the decision she had made. I find that extraordinary.

It's consistent if previous conversations/input from the PM to the minister led the PM to know what the decision would be before it was formally made.
In political speak, the "decision" is the formal paperwork signed by the minister.

 

[Quickstatus]

I don't believe the body search incident is a factor.

Again I have no evidence but I do think it is a factor. A group of 5 women are suing QR/Qatar/QCAA over this and court proceedings are underway. QR says it is not them who did the search, Qatar is using sovereign immunity as a defence etc etc and so the case is being contested.

My sneaking suspicion is the Aus Govt action on more flights is an indirect pressure on the Qataris to settle the case and then everyone can be pals again and all forgiven and QR can operate more flights...

 

[Quickstatus]

the "decision" is the formal paperwork signed by the minister.

Yes usually after several "Oh I bumped into the PM in the pub (cough CL) or in the corridor" chats
This is how business is conducted whether in politics or elsewhere. Formal meetings with recorded minutes are so tedious.....

 

[Lynda2475]

That needs to be corrected but on the flip side Qatar provided flights, at a loss, for Aussies to get home through the pandemic. It shouldn't be a permanent punishment.

I don't think this will solve everything but its a start.

They were charging very high business fares (much higher than the QF government sponsored repatriation flights) and getting freight revenue - doubtful it was loss making.

Restriction needs to be there (and imo be more severe) until a satisfactory outcome is provided for the Australian victims of government sanctioned physical assault for no reason other than daring to book a commercial flight and being a female of child baring age. Absolutely no excuse for the actions taken; the assaults did not help the abandoned child it was a which hunt when obvious the mother would be a poor foreign worked (given the punitive conditions they work under).

 

[RooFlyer]

I actually don't think it that its improbable that the Minister took the decision and the PM didn't know, at least for a few days.

PM was on his way to international meetings when the call from Virgin CEO came through and you can assume that the days prior to that were filled with pretty intense briefings etc about the trip. Minister's office may have sent message through to the PMs office, but that probably got filed as unimportant at the time and not communicated to the PM. If you remember past PM-ships and how access to the PM is tightly guarded by their office, even from Ministers.

Virgin CEO may have originally called at any time, but I'm guessing was given the 'slot' to speak with the PM while he was in the air, or was simply return called then.

Decision on the Qatar Govt appears to be within the Transport Minister's remit, although you'd think the Foreign Minister would have been consulted (reported that she wasn't).

I don't think we have heard from the Transport Minister as to who she spoke to, and when .

 

[eastwest101]

F

At the very least this shows a quite dysfunctional transport minister if what the PM says is true.
The minister wrote to the lawyer involved in the Qatar matter on 10/7 saying that the Australian Government is not considering granting QR extra flights.
On 13/7 the PM speaks to the VA CEO withoit knowing the decision has been made.
So the Minister had had 3 days to tell him about the decision she had made. I find that extraordinary.
And with I think every other Minister questioned also saying they were not aware of the decision being made just who is the "Australian Government" she said was not considering this matter.
So the minister and all her staff plus at least a few from the department must get the prize for their ability to keep a secret.

Following on from this, and using the occums razor theory that a stuff-up is more likely than some convoluted conspiracy theory the decision was made by the Minister on the 10th, presumably in some sort of misdirected attempt to influence the Qatari Governments legal defence of the Australian court case she ignored her own Departments advice. The minister is obviously very highly invested in this court case, and I won't be surprised to find a close family/personal connection between the ministers office and one of the applicants in the legal case (or their lawyers). The minister probably didn't bother informing the PM or the foreign minister or indeed the trade minister or any other ministers but obviously Qatar knew on the 10th, and may have mentioned this to the CEO of Virgin Australia. The CEO of VA on the 13th had her own obvious reasons for asking about the decision on extra Qatar flights, nothing surprising there, it would be odd if she didn't ask about the decision, we are not privvy to that call and the CEO of Virgin may not want to embarrass the PM further by detailing the contents of this call regardless of whether the PM knew on the 13th or not.

When everything blew up and became public, the ministers political staffers swung into action with the usual repertoire of political obsfucation, disassembly and various specious reasons given of National Security/Climate Change etc etc, pretty much every random excuse under the sun except for competition effects and the court case. Its this later political response that will potentially be embarrassing for the government.