Qatar denied extra capacity into Australia

[justinbrett]

QF has a joint venture with EK. QF sells QF coded flights on EK's network and makes money off flights to Europe (and parts of Asia and Africa).
EK operates to 67 destinations within Europe, Asia, North Africa and the Middle East that QF does not operate to, and QF competes with QR on those routes via codeshares on EK services.

As far as I understand it is no where near as favourable as other JVs like the previous QF/BA one or the current QF/AA one.

A ticket booked on EK for all EK metal means QF doesn't get a cent. QF only gets a cut when it sells the ticket, or if QF metal is used.

For Australia-Europe (not including UK), both QR and EK outsell QF, as does SQ (just).

This whole saga is such a disgrace for the government and Qantas. QF is not even a competitor to QR to Europe - not at all, for example I have family in central Europe I need to fly to Vienna, my only options from MEL with a single stopover are Emirates and Qatar. Most people flying to continental Europe would use EK or QR, only fool would be flying through London with QF (detour, waste of time, lots of stopovers). I want more competition to continental Europe, I want more QR flights. Maybe UAE lobbied QF to block QR? Would be even worse.

I agree, which is why I think blaming QF for this is a cop out. Even flight centre CEO says he doesn't think there would be a dramatic change to prices if QR added these flights, and QF only has two flights to fill (one of which with the non-stop advantage), I'm not sure why they should be so worried.

The real question - did VA consider this when switching from EY to QR? EY has near-unlimited traffic rights to Australia and was already a partner. Surely they made this decision with their eyes open.

 

[Himeno]

As far as I understand it is no where near as favourable as other JVs like the previous QF/BA one or the current QF/AA one.

A ticket booked on EK for all EK metal means QF doesn't get a cent. QF only gets a cut when it sells the ticket, or if QF metal is used.

For Australia-Europe (not including UK), both QR and EK outsell QF, as does SQ (just).

Yes, the EK/QF agreement isn't metal neutral. QF only makes money from it if they are EK codes sold on QF aircraft (eg EK selling seats to the 74 Australia/South Pacific destinations that EK don't fly to) or by selling QF codes on EK aircraft.

 

[RooFlyer]

As far as I understand it is no where near as favourable as other JVs like the previous QF/BA one or the current QF/AA one.

A ticket booked on EK for all EK metal means QF doesn't get a cent. QF only gets a cut when it sells the ticket, or if QF metal is used.

So why the heck was Qantas so interested in the Qatari application for more flights, to actively oppose it, buy putting in a submission opposed? Doesn't seem because of commercial competition with EK.

I agree, which is why I think blaming QF for this is a cop out. Even flight centre CEO says he doesn't think there would be a dramatic change to prices if QR added these flights, and QF only has two flights to fill (one of which with the non-stop advantage), I'm not sure why they should be so worried.

Yes, so why did Qantas oppose Qatar?

The real question - did VA consider this when switching from EY to QR? EY has near-unlimited traffic rights to Australia and was already a partner. Surely they made this decision with their eyes open.

No, that's not the real question . That's a distraction (but Virgin makes another welcome appearance ). The question in this thread is why Qantas opposed the Qatar application, solitarily amongst every party involved in aviation in and out of Australia? They seem to have had no commercial rationale V-a-v EK. They weren't competing on the route. Perhaps they were providing a fig-leaf for their Canberra mates? Surely not. Were they just being bloody-minded? Noooooo....

 

[justinbrett]

So why the heck was Qantas so interested in the Qatari application for more flights, to actively oppose it, buy putting in a submission opposed? Doesn't seem because of commercial competition with EK.

Literally no idea

Yes, so why did Qantas oppose Qatar?

They like writing submissions

No, that's not the real question

It's a question though. What went wrong between VA & EY?

but Virgin makes another welcome appearance

I can point to many posts you've made in this thread that had literally nothing to do with the topic - but seriously you think talking about VA's selection of European partner is not relevant to this discussion?

 

[Must...Fly!]

It's a question though. What went wrong between VA & EY?

Almost irrelevant to this thread, but I think it has much more to do with EY rationalising itself than it does it's opinion on VA as a partner.

 

[PineappleSkip]

They were charging very high business fares (much higher than the QF government sponsored repatriation flights) and getting freight revenue - doubtful it was loss making.

Rubbish. My QR flights during covid were the only reasonably priced (J) flights available. They were the lowest fares available for my needs. Everyone flying was charging high fares because noone could bring more than a handful of passengers into Australia. I never caught a COVID flight into Australia that had more than 20 passengers on it and QR would have been loss leaders. EK were charging F fares which you needed to book many months out and QF were nowhere to be seen. QF flights were only happening when underwritten by the government.

Decision on the Qatar Govt appears to be within the Transport Minister's remit, although you'd think the Foreign Minister would have been consulted (reported that she wasn't).

Probably so. There is no treaty level air services agreement with Qatar.

 

[justinbrett]

Almost irrelevant to this thread, but I think it has much more to do with EY rationalising itself than it does it's opinion on VA as a partner.

But VA (who as much someone doesn’t like to talk about them is central to this story, as the chief lobbyist to the minister) signed the deal with QR knowing their current traffic rights. It was widely reported that QR took for granted it would be approved as a reward for flights during covid.

Was VA advised by the department the increase would be approved? Did she sign the deal on the assumption the extra routes would be approved? Was the assistance with lobbying an extra incentive for QR to partner with VA?

 

[MooTime]

It was widely reported that QR took for granted it would be approved as a reward for flights during covid.

Where did QR take it for granted that it would be approved for flights?

That's nonsense, total nonsense QR got thru COVID as they were basically only one operating on any scale and including Freight.

there's no rewards for Airlines, the only rewards are for us suckers collecting points.

 

[justinbrett]

Where did QR take it for granted that it would be approved for flights?

That's nonsense, total nonsense QR got thru COVID as they were basically only one operating on any scale and including Freight.

there's no rewards for Airlines, the only rewards are for us suckers collecting points.

I meant QR was given the impression it would be approved in recognition of their flights to Australia during covid. Perhaps it was the previous government that gave them this impression, I don’t know.

 

[dajop]

This whole saga is such a disgrace for the government and Qantas. QF is not even a competitor to QR to Europe - not at all, for example I have family in central Europe I need to fly to Vienna, my only options from MEL with a single stopover are Emirates and Qatar.

You could probably also purchase a fare using a travel agent on Thai, Qantas or Jetstar to Bangkok continuing with Austrian (or maybe EVA) to Vienna. There’s China Airlines via Taipei, Air India via Delhi. Etihad via Abu Dhabi. Tokyo and Shanghai could also be m options with a change in carrier. Just illustrating that there are more options than just the obvious ones, in the context of this discussion 2-3 extra QR services is not going to make a huge impact on fares IMHO.

 

[Must...Fly!]

I meant QR was given the impression it would be approved in recognition of their flights to Australia during covid. Perhaps it was the previous government that gave them this impression, I don’t know.

Can you provide a source for this, because it's the first I have read/heard of it.

 

[Saab34]

I understand they were given a BNE frequency during Covid? That seems to have become permanent.

Or was that a Sydney frequency they shifted?

 

[Jacques Vert]

Minister King answered questions following the launch of the green paper this morning. She said that the Doha incident provided "context" to the decision however there were a number of factors on which the decision was made.

 

[Must...Fly!]

Minister King answered questions following the launch of the green paper this morning. She said that the Doha incident provided "context" to the decision however there were a number of factors on which the decision was made.

how convenient

 

[justinbrett]

Can you provide a source for this, because it's the first I have read/heard of it.

It was the same sources saying the application had approval from the department but was blocked by the minister. In the fire hydrant of coverage that’s occurred since I can’t find either claim now, but I’ll keep an eye out.

 

[Tiki]

When I choose an airline to fly on, it's based on several criteria.
1. Availability in award class. Being a low income person, I need to use my VA points sourced mostly from Flybuys for free (plus tax) tickets to Istanbul. Lately this availability has been mostly on QR with SQ very limited.
2. Airline safety record. QR is consistently in the top 10 airlines for safety. The Safest Airlines In 2023
3. Punctuality and reliability. I really don't want to be stranded mid-itinerary some place and miss further connections down the road. QR is top 10 for punctuality which means their staff know what they are doing and do their jobs properly. https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/most-punctual-airlines-2022/index.html
4. It's a bonus for me if the connecting airport allows visa free entry and interesting places to visit while on a layover. It's super easy to get a bus from the airport to Souk al Waqif, wander around a bit, have lunch at that gorgeous Persian restaurant and then get another bus back to the airport. I feel perfectly safe doing this as a woman traveling alone. Just the fact that no further similar incidents have occurred supports that the police have been trained better and they won't do this again.

So in my opinion, I want QR to have more routes and more seats for those of us who do want to fly on this airline and have the personal choice to do so. I want to see airfares come down, I will run out of points eventually. Just yesterday I looked at QF, award availability is terrible, even in economy! And if QF gets its way and blocks QR, things will be even worse. I respect that some of you will never choose to fly QR because of what happened in 2020. That is a choice for you to make regardless of whether QR gets more flights to Australia or not. But please respect that other people want to make their own choices as well.

 

[RooFlyer]

I've said throughout that the incident at DOH was going to be the primary reason for the refusal, and the timing of the Minister's letter and the refusal, and the Minister's statements today have simply confirmed this, after all the previous obfuscation by Government ministers and here.

And its funny - the DOH incident seems to be a block to additional flights into the major gateways, but QR are free to fly extra flights elsewhere. In fact it just heard the Minister say on ABC AM they would be 'welcome' to do that.

And in spite of the attempts by some to re-write history by saying that VA was 'chief lobbyist to the minister' (I mean - really - consider government deflection 101) and certain vague QR assumptions, the role of Qantas, as being apparently the sole party to oppose Qatar's application, cannot be swept away. Every report over the past week or so have gone over Qantas' superb and very effective lobbying machine in Canberra.

 

[stm1sydney]

Says to me he was completely disinterested in the actual decision - either because he knew it would be denied, or he was literally not interested in following it up.

But earlier you said "the PM is very interested in this area, having been the Transport Minister for 6 years previously, and to have an extensive conversation to just sit on your hands, and not even mention it to his Minister - seems very far fetched."

 

[justinbrett]

But earlier you said "the PM is very interested in this area, having been the Transport Minister for 6 years previously, and to have an extensive conversation to just sit on your hands, and not even mention it to his Minister - seems very far fetched."

Yes, disinterested in the decision because of direction or knowledge of what that decision would be.

Not disinterested in the matter.

Happy to hear alternative theories of why he would receive a call from VA CEO lobbying for the issue and then chose to do nothing with it.

 

[stm1sydney]

But VA ...

Was VA ...

Obfuscation and deflection 101.