Qatar in talks to take up to 20pc stake in Virgin

[SYD]

It’s important to note that SQ’s bizarre request for SYD-LAX was just SQ acting alone, so they needed government approval and were unsuccessful.

Nothing bizarre at. If there’s a market and demand - why not?

However QR might not need government approval to fly PER-LHR and SYD-JNB nonstop if they do buy 20% of VA. And that’s why it’s a dangerous scenario. There is nothing stopping them from wet leasing/donating a few 787s and A350s to VA, meaning it will be a VA flight on paper but in reality it’s a QR flight with no sign of VA on board, and QR will earn decent $ from not just the lease but the routes. It’s quite the threat to Qantas and hence Australia’s national interest.

Pretty sure that’s exactly what NZ did when they bought AN and started flying SYD-LAX with NZ metal.

They’re already experimenting with this by adding their QR code to VA’s CNS-HND service from July 4. QR has no role in the Australia-Japan market.

But can you buy that flight without the tag from DOH?

AC (amongst others) also codeshare on CNS-HND. Pretty sure you could not buy that standalone. Same as you can’t by QF codeshare flights around Nth/Sth Am, Asia and Europe without the in/out bound QF flight.

 

[HS-TQE]

Other past speculation has named specific routes such as EK flying SYD-LAX in a blogger piece from some random insider for example. Doesn't necessarily mean that it's true or should be taken as gospel.

If an known aviation blogger for example, say GT (for example) was to say SQ will fly from PER to LAX because some random manager in SQ said so, doesn't necessarily mean that it's true.

 

[justinbrett]

I didn't think BA had any interest whatsoever to fly from Perth. If they did, they would not need QR to "influence them,".

There were brief rumours BA at least looked at it after QF’s surprise success on the route.

VS made public comments they’d like to join the route.

But then Covid and oil prices and so on, so it’s all forgotten.

Pretty sure that’s exactly what NZ did when they bought AN and started flying SYD-LAX with NZ metal.

But that’s completely not necessary for NZ, they could fly the route now with 0% Australian ownership, thanks to the open skies agreement between AU & NZ. They just need to originate the flight in NZ, which is easy to do (JQ is on hand to instruct how to plan direct flights that go the long way)

 

[dajop]

I didn't think BA had any interest whatsoever to fly from Perth. If they did, they would not need QR to "influence them,".

You’re completely missing my point. This isn’t about BA wanting to fly the route that’s well established that they don’t. Agree with you. But that wasn’t the point of my argument.

We have allegations that QR want to fly the route by acquiring 20pc of VA, yet they have 25pc of BA who could fly the route today, so why don’t QR use their influence over BA if they so much want to fly that route?

 

[RSVKanga]

We have allegations that QR want to fly the route by acquiring 20pc of VA, yet they have 25pc of BA who could fly the route today, so why don’t QR use their influence over BA if they so much want to fly that route?

Is BA Australia’s second largest airline company?

I think the goal of Qatar Airways and the State of Qatar is quite clearly to bankrupt our national carrier and damage Australia’s economic sovereignty on the world stage just because the government is not letting them fly more planes here on national interest grounds. Influencing BA on one route would just hit our national carrier on one front, while influencing/working with VA on routes including PER-LHR would hit our Australian-owned airline in the worst-possible scenario as VA are also the airline that QF competes with domestically.

 

[justinbrett]

You’re completely missing my point. This isn’t about BA wanting to fly the route that’s well established that they don’t. Agree with you. But that wasn’t the point of my argument.

We have allegations that QR want to fly the route by acquiring 20pc of VA, yet they have 25pc of BA who could fly the route today, so why don’t QR use their influence over BA if they so much want to fly that route?

And this is glossing over the fact that ACCC is never going to approve a mass JV between the Avíos cartel and VA. QR+VA or QR+BA etc. not both.

So if VA did start flying to DOH and/or LHR QR would be in a difficult position.

For the same reason ACCC would never approve HA and FJ joining the QF/AA JV.

 

[RooFlyer]

Not an "insider at Crikey", rather someone from Qatar/VA that gave Michael Sainsbury the information.

The article you linked to does not say where the 'insider' was from, viz:

Insiders suggested that Qatar/Virgin might eventually challenge some of Qantas’ more profitable international routes including Sydney-Johannesburg and Perth-London.

Might have been Hobart airport, might have been made up for effect. <redacted>

 

[elanshin]

Also what is wrong with challenges on QFs monopoly routes where they happily charge whatever they want?

Again they can't make it ridiculously cheap without it being illegal. Competitive, sure and QF has to compete on many other routes in their network.

 

[exceladdict]

VA was largely successful on their Transpacific routes right? That markets a bit oversaturated right now but it's not ludicrous to think that with reasonably priced leases there is a place for vai long haul.

Would QR buy in via IAG (as opposed to QR direct?). I feel like access to the AU loyalty market would be one of the biggest draw cards, and an avios earning option would a great outcome for consumers

 

[Quickstatus]

Also VA will unless I am mistaken remain an Australian carrier.

Got me thinking...
Here is an idea. Maybe with enough capital it can be the "national carrier"

 

[RSVKanga]

Also what is wrong with challenges on QFs monopoly routes where they happily charge whatever they want?

If there was competition on PER-LHR, then it would ideally need to come from BA or VS.

If there was competition on SYD-JNB, then it would ideally need to come from SAA.

Direct PER-LHR and SYD-JNB, from a geographic perspective, has nothing to do with the country Qatar. Why would you support Qatar Airways, 100% owned by an oil rich non-capitalist dictatorship, flying nonstop PER-LHR when it defeats the entire purpose of their DOH hub? Why would you support Qatar Airways, 100% owned by an oil rich non-capitalist dictatorship, flying nonstop SYD-JNB when it defeats the entire purpose of their DOH hub?

Of course, the reason why they want to fly these routes is that they’re willing to even bypass their entire business model of their DOH hub just to satisfy their ego against the Australian Government and our national carrier because QR was denied extra access to Australia due to national interest concerns.

 

[jase05]

Would QR buy in via IAG (as opposed to QR direct?). I feel like access to the AU loyalty market would be one of the biggest draw cards, and an avios earning option would a great outcome for consumers

I was thinking of this last night.
Is it a serious option?

 

[jakeseven7]

it's not ludicrous to think that with reasonably priced leases there is a place for vai long haul.

Yes but leasing costs are at all time highs right now. The only way this is going to work (in the current operating environment) is if a heavily subsidised supported carrier basically gifts some metal… which draws to the last few thousand posts on here on whether it is fair that government backed subsidised companies should be allowed to do this I guess.

 

[jase05]

If there was competition PER-LHR, then it would ideally need to come from BA or VS.

If there was competition on SYD-JNB, then it would ideally need to come from SAA.

Direct PER-LHR and SYD-JNB has nothing to do with the country Qatar. Why would you support Qatar Airways, 100% owned by an oil rich non-capitalist dictatorship, flying nonstop PER-LHR when it defeats the entire purpose of their DOH hub? Why would you support Qatar Airways, 100% owned by an oil rich non-capitalist dictatorship, flying nonstop SYD-JNB when it defeats the entire purpose of their DOH hub?

Of course, the reason why they want to fly these routes is that they’re willing to even bypass their entire business model of their DOH hub just to satisfy their ego against the Australian Government and our national carrier because QR was denied extra access to Australia due to national interest concerns.

Firstly I don’t think those two routes are remotely a possibility and I think the “insider” information is just pure garbage.
But hypothetically if they did decide to go those routes they would need the support of the rest of the board and owners and there really isn’t much in it for them. They are only going to hold a minority stake after all.
I doubt QF even feel threatened at all

 

[Quickstatus]

Why would you support Qatar Airways,

No. The better way to think about this there is no requirement to support the "national carrier". I don't see a problem if someone else can do it better.

 

[PERLHR]

You’re completely missing my point. This isn’t about BA wanting to fly the route that’s well established that they don’t. Agree with you. But that wasn’t the point of my argument.

We have allegations that QR want to fly the route by acquiring 20pc of VA, yet they have 25pc of BA who could fly the route today, so why don’t QR use their influence over BA if they so much want to fly that route?

Maybe because it's unlikely that QR could influence BA is my point...on that route or any other probably.

 

[PERLHR]

Got me thinking...
Here is an idea. Maybe with enough capital it can be the "national carrier"

I like your thinking....

 

[HS-TQE]

VA was largely successful on their Transpacific routes right? That markets a bit oversaturated right now but it's not ludicrous to think that with reasonably priced leases there is a place for vai long haul.

Would QR buy in via IAG (as opposed to QR direct?). I feel like access to the AU loyalty market would be one of the biggest draw cards, and an avios earning option would a great outcome for consumers

VAi was in a JV partnership with DL on their TransPacific routes until 2020. It could be argued that neither could've made it on their own back in the operating environment then considering that QF and UA were the giants then.

Well to some extent those two (QF and UA) are still are giants now, whereas AA is in a JV with QF, and DL are now largely on their own (only a interline partnership with ZL).

 

[MooTime]

If there was competition PER-LHR, then it would ideally need to come from BA or VS.

Why would you support Qatar Airways, 100% owned by an oil rich non-capitalist dictatorship, flying nonstop SYD-JNB when it defeats the entire purpose of their DOH hub?

I'd support which ever airline provides the services I expect and want.

Without Qatar providing oil to us and the world I'd be unable to drive my car yet alone how many industries would collapse without oil somewhere in the production transportation line required to make the business's run.
How'd the Qantas planes fly without oil?

I thank then for their premium airline service and oil they supply.

Such a positive this QR becoming a cornerstone investor in VA.

 

[Warragul]

But that’s completely not necessary for NZ, they could fly the route now with 0% Australian ownership, thanks to the open skies agreement between AU & NZ. They just need to originate the flight in NZ, which is easy to do (JQ is on hand to instruct how to plan direct flights that go the long way)

Which I think that us what they did when NZ started flying SYD- LAX, being before they were shareholders in AN.